Part of the reason for the USA's failure is MAGA but the other big aspect is a left that does not engage the real enemy
Toxic idealism
Spineless capitulation
Mindless cynicism
"Polite society" "high road" cluelessness
And lazy entitlement
Not financial entitlement but this obtuse entitled foolishness that we have the time and space to criticize some aspect of the left according to deranged standards of perfection when we're facing literal fascism
Make MAGA the target of your venom
@benroyce this reminds me of a recently published argument between Chomsky and Moinbot on whether what happened during the terrible Rwanda wars was a genocide or an atrocity.The letters between them really sounded like they fell out. I think there's a bit of pride in there too.
Appreciate I'm massively simplifying their correspondence. And I say that only to somewhat mitigate fear of trolling, which further highlights your point.
i won't troll you but i will castigate you
never mention #Chomsky again
nevermind him licking #Putin's boots over the invasion of #Ukraine
Noam is in the #EpsteinFiles defending #Epstein
he did this *after* Epstein was revealed as a pedophile human trafficker
Fuck #NoamChomsky
And I am not attacking the left, ironically, in contradiction to what I have said above:
A pedophile/ #imperialism apologist is not of the left
Chomsky is not of the left
Not anymore at least
unfortunately leftists morphing into right wing turds has a number of examples in this world
when it happens we sever all ties
#NoamChomsky is a piece of shit
we cannot think of him in any other way except scorn
that he once said something insightful is still true, and we can use his past thoughts usefully: quietly, to ourselves
what we can never do anymore is attribute any of that to a man who is now human scum
the name Noam #Chomsky is now rat poison
#tankies are mindless contrarians
"i hate the usa so i support vile regimes" is not principled nor moral
the moral, principled approach is to castigate the #USA *and* #Russia
supporting Russian #imperialism in the name of opposing American imperialism is just fucking stupid
so supposedly intellectual #NoamChomsky is functioning on the same level as a 14 year old edgelord in this fashion
#Chomsky's pedophile apologism in the #EpsteinFiles is just the final nail in the coffin
I think pedophile apologist is the most apt label now
The German leftist party "Die Linke" had a _lot_ of Tankies who made all sorts of excuses for Putin.
Fortunately, the bulk of these seemed to have moved on to the "Bündnis Sarah Wagenknecht", who (apart from being complete Putin stooges) propagated a policy of, er, "Nationalistic Socialism".
Then they received 4.98% of the vote in the last federal election - which was just shy of the 5% they needed to actually get any seats. It was _glorious_.
And Die Linke did much better at 8.8%, and has now transformed into a party that I can actually respect.
What do we do with these tankies. They seem beyond redemption. In fact I think they merely represent some incoherent ideological evolutionary intermediate species before their full metamorphosis into outright far right fascism
We hold them in contempt.
I mean, if you don't speak out against Imperialism even when it _doesn't_ originate from the USA, then how credible are you as a "leftist"?
yikes, wasn’t expecting him to go here:
‘That's particularly true now with the hysteria that has developed about abuse of women, which has reached the point that even questioning a charge is a crime worse than murder. For virtually everyone who sees any of this, the reaction will be “where there’s smoke there’s fire, maybe raging fire” (whatever the facts, which few will even think of investigating).’
bad enough even before the context of giving advice to *Epstein*
i already despised the guy for excusing putin's ethnofascist imperialism in ukraine. it revealed chomsky was completely full of shit. so all of this didn't shock me: if you're willing to shill for putin, shilling for epstein is easy. it's the same sort of betrayal
some people though still need to come to terms with the fact that chomsky has completely defiled everything that initially attracted them to him
Ok then, if chomsky isn't on the left because he's a pedophile supporter (agreed) then people who eat other animals aren't on the left either because they perpetuate a globalised violent system of exploitation torture and murder for their own taste preferences in direct contradiction of left principles of justice equality and fairness.
See what non-human victims go through
VVV
https://nationearth.com
#Left #Leftism #Vegan #Veganism #TotalLiberation #Anarchism #Veganarchism #LeftistUnity
interesting hijacking angle
and while i have no problem with your agenda, the way you hijack this discussion isn't going to win you any converts
like i said i don't have a problem with your agenda, but i might suggest an improvement in your approach
if you want to win converts and exert more influence, don't proactively go out of your way to make enemies with potential allies or at least ideology-adjacent people
we both know MAGA laughs at you, and me. so why must we fight? what is achieved? giving MAGA aid by bickering with each other while they advance?
lead with inclusion, not exclusion
There's such a thing as toxic positivity and inclusion, I think its a dangerous idea to say that everyone on the broadly defined "left" should put aside their differences to fight the right. Especially when many of the same values that make the right a threat poison the left: what about people who want to abolish capitalism and call lgbt a capitalist scourge, what about leftists that defend china as a necessary evil to overthrow western hegemony, or the example I gave leftists that uphold human supremacist power structures and kill other animals for their own enjoyment, or leftists that perpetuate white supremacy or ableism. These are just off the top of my head
#Left #Leftism #Capitalism #LGBT #China #HumanSupremacy #WhiteSupremacy #Ableism
😂
Ambiyelp, i'm calling toxic idealists fucking morons destroying the left
i'm very far from toxic positivity
"what about leftists that defend china as a necessary evil to overthrow western hegemony"
so that's just championing totalitarianism
nevermind china is capitalist, so you're now incoherent in your complaints about capitalism
so in the end, you're not a leftist at all. just deeply confused
@ambiguous_yelp @benroyce I am absolutely in agreement with this since I wrote a post similar to this just now
Tankies aren't on the left. They embrace authoritarianism, which is impossible to reconcile with any leftist values
Sure they imagine themselves on the left. But what someone thinks they are can sometimes be illusionary
Tankies are in some temporary transient evolutionary state of ideology, as they reconcile their conflicting beliefs, to eventually mutate into their true form: fascists
@benroyce @ambiguous_yelp well I agree that tankies are authoritarian and bad. But I would not exactly say it's accurate to call them fascist. Since fascism is not just a synonym for authoritarianism but specifically refers to Palingenetic ultranationalism. the theory of ultra-national rebirth. The idea that nations are equivalent to organisms that can live grow and die and that the solution to society's problems is to create a new nation. A newly regenerated ultra Nation.
This is part of the symbolism behind the bundle of sticks. That each of the sticks represent the individual parts of the organism and all of it together represent the entire organism that is the nation. Now that being said I do think there are some tankies that are fascist such as Nazbols since they combine ml central planning with Palingenetic ultranationalism.
Now that being said. I get what you're trying to say. But my point is that they're commonly labeled as leftist by most people. And because of that makes me feel like the word leftist is meaningless. if a person calling themselves a leftist can be that socially conservative and reactionary
Exactly
People need to stop thinking of tankies as "far left". The concept of tankies being on the left can never be considered valid and has to be flatly rejected
It is not possible for someone to consider themselves to be on the left and also embrace authoritiarianism. It's a completely impossible scenario
And I agree they aren't fascist. I meant that fascism is the eventual destination of their incoherent positions as they work through their bullshit
@benroyce @ambiguous_yelp I guess the way I feel is that many of the ideologies on the left are so radically different from each other that many of them are often incompatible. like even if you were to exclude tankies from it. You still have Anarchist and social Democrats.
Which their end goals and methods are radically different from each other. Since anarchist want to build an alternate society from within by not using the state. While social Democrats want to reform capitalism from within to make it into a more softer welfare capitalism. like my point is that infighting is inevitable from that because their end goals and analysis are so radically different from each other.
I guess this goes into a question of how do you define what is left and how do you make that into a coalition that can work
i would say that the (true) left all have one goal:
power to the people
*how* you achieve that goal?
yes, all very different strategies
of various effectiveness and long term vs short term goals
that's easy
fascism creates nothing but only consumes. it has to generate more and newer outgroups endlessly to abuse, until it implodes. in the case of MAGA, they aren't rich, so their future fate is as the outgroup: cannon fodder. like russian ethnofascists dying in ukraine or german nazis... also dying ukraine
so the delineation is:
for the people, genuinely
or for the people, as a thieving con job on bigoted morons who don't see they are being robbed
Well let's see how we can take our wisdom and fix this rotten world
This is the larger point I was trying to make and why I don't consider what I did as hijacking
You start off by saying the left must be united against the right, but then you carve out a specific exception for when we should shun those on the "left". When people "divide the left" they do it for principled reasons not because theyre opposed to any sort of collaboration. In fact it is the whole idea of "leftist unity" that is idealist, the idea that eveyrone on the left shares fundamental values is just naive and kind of patronising. Really the labels left and right aren't very useful at all they are broad tendancies and don't point to any particular ideology or set of foundational beliefs.
awesome
so you're happy with MAGA winning more and more until they just outright machine gun us
because rather than admit anything in what i said, you'd prefer to play little "gotcha!" games like "no, u!" mindless inversion of the meaning of toxic idealism: *i'm* the toxic idealist because i oppose toxic idealism
neat
🤦
@ambiguous_yelp @benroyce There is a difference between activism and electoral politics.
The electoral politics will never produce the results we want on their own, but they can make it more or less difficult to engage in progressive activism.
It’s still possible to organise resistance in a fascist dictatorship, but it’s much easier under a dysfunctional and comparatively mildly hostile government.
If you think that voting harder prevents fascism then you don't understand fascism.
Fascism is about a collaboration between the political class and the capitalist class, which is why the "left" politicians seem incompetent to prevent fascism: bc robust antifascist measures are too left wing for them and when push comes to shove they'd rather fascism than socialism
Socialism or barbarism
Also the state is fundamentally counter revolutionary, the more powerful it gets at preventing fascism the more powerful it gets at maintaining capitalism and colonialism
It would make a difference *if electoral participation could meaningful hinder fascism at all* the problem we have is that the politicians are just kind of ok with fascism as long as their wealth and power are protected.
Sure individual people might buck that trend but as a class, politicians seek to protect their class power and anarchists want to remove their power whereas fascists want to entrench it.
Generally the only times politicians are genuinely against fascists are when the fascists are threatening to oust them from office
@ambiguous_yelp Which is why I’m not referring directly to politicians’ abilities or desires to hinder fascism, but instead saying that if one candidate is likely to increase ICE presence by 1000% and the other by 100%, it’s worse to elect the 1000% guy, because that will make the antifascist struggle harder.
This is of course dependent on votes being correctly cast, counted and respected, which is definitely not a given in this climate.
@ahltorp 100% or 1000% either way it would be a better use of time to organise communities for direct action rather than begging to slow down fascism slightly
@ambiguous_yelp Right now you’re actively putting effort into getting people not to vote, which is going to make it harder to organise your direct action communities.
Only an accelerationist would say that a worse climate is better.
vote or dont idc about the action itself its usually neglible energy spent just don't let it take away from direct action efforts
@ambiguous_yelp I agree that the activism is what’s ultimately important (also for actions taken by politicians), but the level of government oppression of the actions and activists is a non-negligible background factor.
And the people who are encouraging votes on the least-bad alternative mostly weren’t going to participate in your direct actions anyway, so no energy lost there.
@ambiguous_yelp "whatever party wins is equally bad - let the nazis win and sing protest songs instead". Bullshit.
I'm not saying you're ill intended - I hope you're not - but these ideas is something helping exploitation and opression.
If people don't care to vote for the less bad, the way way worse will win (just look at the US).
I also fail to see what sort of direct actions can have a bigger impact than the people ultimately doing the legislation.
The people don't do the legislation, legislation leans towards policies favored by the rich.
The democrats laid the foundation for fascism, they approved the ICE funding, obama ramped up the war on drugs and anti immigration efforts, so much so that he was nicknamed the "deporter in chief".
It is a double act, one side sets them up the other knocks them down and all the while more rights are taken away from the proletariat and more wealth is funneled to the capitalist class.
The centre left party winning every election from now until the end of time is not a workable anti fascist praxis. We need to create conditions such that it is impossible for fascists to take over, we need to abolish the state.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/government-wealthy-study_n_5154879
#Anarchism #Fascism #Electoralism #Obama #Democrats #Immigration #DHS #DepartmentOfHomelandSecurity #ICE #ImmigrationCustomsEnforcement #WarOnDrugs #Capitalism
@ambiguous_yelp politicians do the legislation and the people can depose politicians by voting (even in the USA).
The parties can also change if the people force them to. There there is a lot of work to do outside the elections.
But then again, if people don't vote, soon they won't even have that option.
You can choose who to vote for but you can't choose who's on the ballot: that is decided by material conditions. Running for office is absurdly expensive, you either have to come from the capitalist class or be funded by the capitalist class
Please don't heed the "capitalists are pigs" depictions in this video I don't agree with that specieisist depiction
Actually, the main barrier to getting on the ballot isn't economic; it's political. Both #democrats and #republicans have worked together for decades to restrict ballot access, in a way that completely undermines #democracy. Of course, the #libertarian position has pretty much always been that such policies are total BS.
@ambiguous_yelp so: do you agree or not that the Trump government (regime) is worse than Biden or Harris?
If you do agree, and you still dissuade people from voting, you are acting as the MAGAs little helper by removing obstacles for them. This is very dangerous.
The democrats are incapable of stopping fascism and it is a fools errand to make sure the dems win every election, even if they won this one they would have lost the next one or the one after that. There is no such thing as a political party winning every election.
Or maybe the democrats actually completely change and gain the power necessary to defeat fascism, then they would have also gained the exact same tools to suppress anarchism. All the while the dems would be bombing the middle east holocausting non-humans and accelerating climate change towards the extinction of all known sentient life in the universe.
#Anarchism #Democrats #Fascism #USA #UnitedStatesOfAmerica #Electoralism #Speciesism #HumanSupremacy #WhiteSupremacy #ClimateCollapse #ClimateEmergency #ClimateChange
That's the problem though, "those who like bacon" are holding others in bondage, and I'm not going to throw pigs under the bus by ignoring that violation of liberty for my own benefit
I'm an intersectional anarchist, I dont compromise on anybody's rights when organizing: no exceptions. We need to start as we mean to go on otherwise we will reproduce systems of oppression forever
See what non-human victims go through
VVV
https://nationearth.com
#Speciesism #HumanSupremacy #Pigs #TotalLiberation #Intersectionality
Its not about sustainability its that pigs have an inalienable right to life. If pig slaughterers can't see that then they are the ones who are dooming others to a terrible fate every day and either they stop doing that or they are a threat to liberty.
Of course I could be wrong about anything, you're welcome to argue why pigs don't deserve to live if you want.
"Liking bacon" is almost exactly the same as killing them yourself. If you pay an assassin to kill someone you share about half the accountability
It's like youre saying to me "you have to work with the racists and the misogynists because youre all oppressed under capitalism so you have to swallow your pride and put aside your differences" and its like no, if their values include the oppression of others then it would be counterproductive to include them in any liberatory project
Movements that work together succeed
Movements that shit on their ideological neighbors fail
If you just want to be a judgmental edgelord on social media, by all means enjoy yourself
But that's all you're going to get with your approach
Succeed at what? If the liberation isn't total liberation then its a failure. The means don't justify the ends. I will not ignore the oppression of non-human animals or of any oppressed group for some arbitrary notion of success
#TotalLiberation #Anarchism #Veganarchism #Veganism #Speciesism #HumanSupremacy
That's fine. I have no problem with your goals
I would get investment into artifical meat vat tech and make it cheaper than animal meat and succeed thataways
But you don't actually care about your stated goals
All you care about is posturing on social media
Non-human victims can't wait for artificial meat to become less expensive than flesh. Maybe it will never happen, but if someone needs an identical replacement to flesh products to stop slitting an innocent creatures throat they are not an ally, and they would continue to perpetuate speciesism either way. There is no nutritional need for artificial meat either since all essential nutrients can be found on a plant based diet.[1]
The fact is people can choose to stop killing innocent animals who have done nothing to hurt them today, and every day they don't is a day creatures needlessly are tortured and killed for their selfish preferences
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that, in adults, appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan dietary patterns can be nutritionally adequate and can offer long-term health benefits such as improving several health outcomes associated with cardiometabolic diseases. Vegetari …
i proposed a coherent effective solution
and you respond exactly as i describe you: a posturing outrage performer
you're nothing but a dopamine addict
in one sentence i proposed a plan that gets closer to your stated goal than 100,000 posts from you doing high holy outrage. why don't you get that? because you don't care about your own goal. you care about going online to make yourself feel good
i am a more effective proponent of your goals than you are
it's a fucking joke
The idea that investment in meat alternatives will make more people stop eating flesh is an opinion you hold not me.
Plenty meat alternatives already exist and yet they are still not prevalent, they are just another product that is sold alongside flesh products - they are largely regarded by people who eat flesh as unhealthy and ultra processed
As long as people regard other animals as objects to be exploited then they will exploit them
Veganism is about much more than diet. Even if I were to accept your premise that meat substitutes at cost would end animal slaughter for meat, it wouldnt end slaughter in dairy or eggs, or for animal testing, or for leather fur silk down wool or in horse racing or dog racing or aquariums or bullfighting.
To oppose all this requires a consistent and principled opposition to exploitation that doesn't come by giving someone a cheaper burger.
i was going to write
"don't forget to masturbate your high holy superior ego and ignore an actual effective plan to achieve your stated goals, thus revealing how fake you are and what you really only care about"
but i see you're way ahead of me
🤣
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