Mastodawn

:EA DATA. SF:16h ago

I learned something today: Google's Gemini "AI" on phones accesses your data from "Phones, Messages, WhatsApp" and other stuff whether you have Gemini turned on or not. It just keeps the data longer if you turn it on. Oh, and lets it be reviewed by humans (!) for Google's advantage in training "AI" etc.

But this only came to my attention because of an upcoming change: it's going to start keeping your data long-term even if you turn it "off": "#Gemini will soon be able to help you use Phone, #Messages, #WhatsApp, and Utilities on your phone, whether your Gemini Apps Activity is on or off."

This is, of course, a #privacy and #security #nightmare.

If this is baked into Android, and therefore not removable, I'd have to say I'd recommend against using Android at all starting July 7th.

https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/gemini-ai-will-soon-access-calls-and-messages-on-your-android-even-if-you

#spyware #AI #LLM #Google #spying #phone #Android #private #data

ProfessorBoop 1d ago

@cazabon Can't someone just deny it those permissions? Or even just uninstall it altogether with ADB?

The article says it accesses this information whether you have it turned on or not; I don't know for sure, but it sure sounds like there's no permissions controls that would prevent it from doing so.

I don't know if it's uninstallable at all; that's why I wondered if it was baked into Android. Regardless of whether it's uninstallable with ADB, that's not a solution - the vast majority of Android users don't have the knowledge and inclination to do so -- or even to know "ADB" exists and what it is. Think "regular users".

@lauren regularly makes the point that technical "solutions" to privacy and security problems which require advanced technical skill and understanding are an overall negative for the tech world - it makes the technically capable regard the problems as non-issues and leaves the vast majority of users helpless and victimized.

#users #solution #problem #victim #technology #tech

ProfessorBoop 1d ago

@cazabon @lauren I agree but the average person doesn't have privacy and is just preyed upon because people don't care about privacy like you or I until it's too late. It's much easier for someone to shut their brain off and click "I agree" and have a defeatist mindset to privacy. Until people actually care, every act of defiance against surveillance is an ugly technical solution. Anti-intellectualism and the reduced barrier to entry of dumbed down iPads has been disastrous for humanity.

Julie Webgirl 15h ago

@ProfessorBoop @cazabon @lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org

Doesn't matter if one cares if they can't do anything about it. They make it difficult on purpose.

Der Giga 10h ago

@juliewebgirl This Tech elitism that blames the individual is at the end siding with abusive tech companies.
It's also completely on l oblivious to the fact, that the informed consumer can not exist, because the complexity of our ßm systems would make it more than a full-time job to be well informed and capable.

@ProfessorBoop @cazabon

sonja dolinsek 12h ago

@cazabon @ProfessorBoop @lauren But I do not have to install it, so I do not install it

@ProfessorBoop @cazabon I'm assuming it's built into the Google app itself (since Assistant is, too)

EDIT: nevermind, just opened my app drawer and there shines the previously optional Gemini app without me having installed it

Internet Rando 1d ago

@cazabon I swear, @murena is missing out on some advertizing gold with this technofacist bullshit google keeps pulling.

Dragon-sided D 23h ago

@cazabon
Strongly recommend
https://grapheneos.org/

GrapheneOS: the private and secure mobile OS

GrapheneOS is a security and privacy focused mobile OS with Android app compatibility.

GrapheneOS

itsFriday 21h ago

@dragonsidedd @cazabon Looks like I would need to buy a google phone to get rid of google... What would you suggest for a Fairphone 5?

NotARobot 19h ago

@itsFriday @dragonsidedd @cazabon Not sure if it's on the 5 but Ive been using calyx on my Fairphone 4 since I got it. There are a few usability issues, but for the most oart really nice.

ZenHeathen 🏳️‍🌈19h ago

@dragonsidedd Not an option for an awful lot of phones; easiest to implement on Google's own phones; also a nightmare for people not tech-savvy. @cazabon

@ZenHeathen I'm curious which part is a nightmare. When I started using it, I was afraid it would be a big ordeal (as someone who just wants to use their phone, not tweak it), but I found it surprisingly straightforward. And it seems like if you go the less paranoid route and use sandboxed Google Play and still install from the Play Store, the user experience is mostly like using vanilla Android. But I am somewhat tech-savvy, and I was expecting it to be worse, so it's possible that I've just forgotten some of the bumps in the road.
@dragonsidedd @cazabon

Dragon-sided D 12h ago

@internic @ZenHeathen @cazabon Also honestly curious about what is nightmarish on Graphene.

I specifically suggested Graphene for general advice instead of PinePhone, which I prefer -- but I have been using Linux desktop for ~20 years and Windows flummoxes me

https://pine64.org/devices/pinephone_pro/

PinePhone Pro

Meet the PinePhone Pro, our flagship smartphone and the best way to experience mainline Linux on a mobile device. Features and Specifications System on Chip (SoC) Rockchip RK3399S 64bit SoC – 2x A72 and 4x A53 CPU cores @ 1.5GHz GPU ARM Mali T860 4x core GPU @ 500MHz RAM 4GB LPDDR4 @ 800MHz Storage 128GB eMMC flash storage Optional micro SD card (SDXC up-to 2TB) LCD panel 6″ 1440 x 720 in-cell IPS with Gorilla Glass 4™ Cameras 13MP Sony IMX258 main camera with Gorilla Glass 4™ protective layer 8MP OmniVision OV8858 front-facing camera Modem & GPS Quectel EG25-G – global GSM and CDMA bands GPS, GPS-A, GLONASS WiFi & Bluetooth AMPAK AP6255 WiFi 11ac + Bluetooth V4.1 I/O MicroSD slot Pogo-pins (compatible with the original PinePhone) USB-C power, data (USB 3.0) and DP alt-mode video out Sensors Accelerator Gyroscope Proximity Compass Ambient light Privacy hardware switches Cameras Microphone WiFi and Bluetooth LTE modem (including GPS) Headphones (to enable UART output) External buttons Volume up / down rocker Power ON/ OFF Audio Out Headset speaker Audio jack Loud Speaker Other Flash / Torch Vibration motor Status LED UART via audio jack Battery Samsung J7 form-factor 3000mAh Charging 5V 3A (15W) Quick Charge – USB Power Delivery specification Dimensions 160.8 x 76.6 x 11.1mm Weight Approx. 215g Stores Global Global: Accessories Global: Spare parts EU EU: Accessories Affiliates Documentation PinePhone Pro Datasheets, schematics and certifications What’s inside? We learned a lot from working on the original PinePhone. Over the past two years we painstakingly collected and analyzed your feedback and explored all avenues for hardware improvements. The PinePhone Pro is the end result of this journey. It is powered by a Rockchip hexa-core SoC operating at 1.5GHz, and ships paired with 4GB of dual-channel LPDDR4 RAM as well as 128GB of internal eMMC flash storage. It features a high-fidelity 13MP main camera sensor and a 5MP front-facing camera.

PINE64

@internic @ZenHeathen @dragonsidedd @cazabon My experience as a Danish citizen, is that a bunch of apps for interacting with government are at best challenging to make work, some (MitID) are impossible. For stupid reasons that I can do nothing about.

For now I use alternative but slightly more cumbersome workarounds, but it is definitely eroding the otherwise very positive experience I'm having with GrapheneOS.

I might cave in and buy an iPhone, eventually.

Ruth Mottram 8h ago

@m @internic @ZenHeathen @dragonsidedd @cazabon mitID only working with chrome is a freaking scandal.

@Ruth_Mottram @internic @ZenHeathen @dragonsidedd @cazabon The problem with MitID on GrapheneOS is the Google Play integrity check the app require, which will only work on Google authorized Androids logged in to Google, as far is I know.

Pretty nice racket Google have going there.

Bernd Herd 8h ago

@m @Ruth_Mottram @internic @ZenHeathen @dragonsidedd @cazabon When "Security" forces you to use an insecure operating system.

Owellian Newspeak...

@m Yeah, based on your first post I figured it was a Play Integrity problem. I knew that this could be a problem theoretically, I just hadn't personally encountered it, aside from one case; my authenticator (Authy) stopped working one day due to them abruptly turning on Play Integrity checks, which was problematic. But in that case I could just switch to an alternative. With a government app, that's a much bigger problem. @Ruth_Mottram @ZenHeathen @dragonsidedd @cazabon

ZenHeathen 🏳️‍🌈6h ago

@internic I didn't mean the user experience; I haven't had the experience, myself. I meant the process of trying to fight the OS you have and vendor lockouts and crap to get to a point where you can try to install it. @dragonsidedd @cazabon

@ZenHeathen Oh. The install was pretty trivial for me (another surprise), but I bought a Pixel new, directly from Google (so unlocked). I'm guessing you're referring to scenarios like using a preexisting phone that may have a locked bootloader, and, yes, I can believe that could be a nightmare. @dragonsidedd @cazabon

ZenHeathen 🏳️‍🌈5h ago

@internic Yes, a Pixel--that's the one where alternate OSs are quite simple to install, but you're buying Google's own phone, and so directly giving them more money. @dragonsidedd @cazabon

Tanquist 23h ago

@cazabon
I was going to wait until my current phone is no longer usable before I ditched google, but now I'd like to move forward.
Does anyone know if it's possible to de-google a Unihertz phone?

Eliot B 14h ago

@tanquist @cazabon
Unihertz is not well supported by the deGoggled androids. But a search for e.g. "Lineageos Unihertz" does yield some results.
It might depend on what model you have, and how brave you are.
#LineageOs

ity [unit X-69]23h ago

If this is baked into Android

Idt even Google would be that stupid. Android has currently zero Gemini stuff in it.

and therefore not removable,

Android is open source, can always remove it

Asta McCarthy 23h ago

@cazabon By the looks of it it will be part of the Google play services. So if you use a AOSP based ROM you'd escape this nightmare for now. So hopefully full-linux phones will develop really fast now, their needed.

> I'd recommend against using Android at all

Good advice! Instead of using Android, I recommend moving away from the Google-controlled world and going with #MobileLinux #LinuxMobile -- see things like #phosh #mobian #postmarketos #ubports #purism #foss #floss #privacy @linmob @phosh

@eliasr @cazabon @linmob @phosh or Android sans the Google stuff. Something like #lineageos, #calyxos etc

Oregon Wine Woman 23h ago

@cazabon
Any suggestions, aside from an Apple product, would be welcome.

Pinkie 🇪🇺21h ago

@NorCalWineLady @cazabon GrapheneOS - it's basically Android but without Google and has some useful privacy features. Runs only on Pixels though.

廃墟猫 🐈🐈‍⬛🐈🐈‍⬛🐈‍⬛18h ago

@pinkie161 @NorCalWineLady @cazabon I'm using graphene right now. It works fine. No gemini AI.

Oregon Wine Woman 17h ago

@pinkie161 @cazabon
Pixels? Umm... not really fond of them in the past. I'll see what they are doing these days. Unfortunately, I'm addicted to Samsung tech. 🫥

vandorb12 21h ago

@NorCalWineLady @cazabon telegram wires, signal fires, semaphore... Uhhhhhhh writing letters?
Totally not being serious. There are some good alternatives mentioned in this thread.

@NorCalWineLady

While I'm aware of the various de-googled versions of Android, and various other Linux-based non-Android platforms, I'm afraid I can't offer any recommendations, because I have no experience with any of them - or of Android or IOS, either. I don't have a smartphone. Or a dumbphone.

The others contributing in this thread have mentioned some I wasn't familiar with. Anecdotally, running any non-mainstream phone OS means putting up with a lot of quirks, but perhaps they have had better experiences.

#quirks #landline #phone #DumbPhone #SmartPhone

@cazabon it sounds like a poorly worded email rather than a deliberate product change.

sunflowerinrain 22h ago

@cazabon
My plan was to buy an Android-free phone when current phone reaches retirement age. Plan must now be implemented early, even though current phone is not yet 10 years old.

NB Install e/os? No, current phone not supported.

@sunflowerinrain @cazabon has e/os promised not to install AI into core, do you know?

Joris Meys 21h ago

@cazabon Can @EUCommission do something about this blatant abuse. Does privacy mean anything at all?

Jorge Saturno 21h ago

@cazabon I wonder if this will be embedded into AOSP at some point. CC @GrapheneOS

Kevin Russell 21h ago

Gemini is worse than Recall.

Software violence against Americans. ReCall & Gemini Google & Microstuff.

Saving all your data for Trump and ICE

Dump them, delete them, break free.

#gemini #recall #ms #privacy #trump #SoftwareAssault #threat #linux

Thom Zane 21h ago

@cazabon Using any Android fork worth their weight should disable such functionality.

Toni Aittoniemi 21h ago

@cazabon ”Security” and ”Free Speech” warriors executing #GreatDataHeist luxury #surveillance

Marooder 21h ago

@cazabon The article is ambiguous. It could mean that Gemini local inferrence keeps accessing Messages etc, and the retention rules for Gemini Apps Activity are for server-based inferrence, which would be slightly less sinister.

I find most technical journalism is ambiguous at best 🤷

So sure, Google could be only doing this with local inferencing, not sending anything off-device. But do you really think Google has earned that sort of default assumption of good faith?

I'd argue the opposite. I presume *all* of big tech is evil until proven otherwise. That's just the way to bet these days.

#Google #BigTech #spyware #spying #privacy #security

Marooder 9h ago

@cazabon Agree it's good to be skeptic by default.

I'd still put Google (and Microsoft and Apple) as the relatively safer choices among all the suppliers of "server side" AI, due to institutional structure.

They have departments full of lawyers and techs, who know full well the risk of visible privacy leaks (when some state or celebrity secrets accidentally leak in the knowledge base of a bot) and of the burden of having to manage private data (e.g. comply with law enforcement requests, no data, no request, easy life).

The other players are startups run by 20 somethings who are unaware or happy to ignore the law and the consequences of mishaps, pushed by lottery playing VC sugar daddies who never had any respect for law or humanity.

Meta should behave like Google due to its size but I think nobody will stop Sun King Zuck there and he's still into moving fast and breaking things. Zuck also seems convinced, rightly or wrongly, that AI will be winner take all (number 1 or death) which also pushes to break rules.

At the other end there are small outfits, which may or may not be run by people who care, but where the chance of accidental mistreatment of private data due to incompetence or lack of resources is very high.

@cazabon someone I know noticed today that "NotebookLM" (which I understand is linked to Gemini) has appeared on their Chromebook app bar, unrequested. How screwed are they?
#NotebookLM #Chromebook #AI #LLM #Google #Spying

Kolokoko Bird!20h ago

@cazabon Thank you for mentioning this! I hadn't noticed. I don't use AI, but suspect that this will soon be baked into Android, whether I want it or not. Time to jump! Making plans to switch phones.

ZenHeathen 🏳️‍🌈19h ago

@cazabon Thankfully, I have alternate, non-Google apps for all of those functions, and the "Google app" itself disabled. But I don't kid myself into thinking I'm completely safe, just better off than many.

廃墟猫 🐈🐈‍⬛🐈🐈‍⬛🐈‍⬛18h ago

@cazabon or use one of the branches that don't use Google services like Graphene OS.

Wyatt H Knott 18h ago

@cazabon You want to know the REALLY bad part? Gemini/google was reading my Signal messages as I typed them. I know this because it began suggesting AI auto complete phrases as I was typing, after a recent update. It eventually stopped when I turned off EVERYTHING, including spell check, but I assume they're still reading.

mcSlibinas 12h ago

@Wyatt_H_Knott @cazabon google keyboard?

Wyatt H Knott 7h ago

@mcSlibinas @cazabon nope