Spaceflight 🚀🇪🇺 The announced delay ⏳🥱 of #Ariane6 left #SpaceX as the only viable alternative https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-signs-security-deal-us-launch-satellite-spacex-elon-musk/
The #EuropeanUnion 🇪🇺 announced plans to launch 170 #satellites 🛰️ into #orbit between 2025 and 2027 https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/oct/15/billionaire-space-race-can-bezoss-project-kuiper-catch-up-to-musks-starlink
Launched 🚀 by... ?
Mostly Ariane, the price doesn't matter
> 50% SpaceX
ULA
ISRO
Poll ended at .
"Ambitious but achievable. Always. Of course, big dreams 💭 must always be kept within the bounds of what is technically feasible and financially 💰 affordable." https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Saturn_s_moon_Enceladus_top_target_for_ESA
🤔 So they won't launch it with #Ariane6 as of the #LaunchCost ? 🙄
Saturn's moon Enceladus top target for ESA
A fresh, icy crust hides a deep, enigmatic ocean. Plumes of water burst through cracks in the ice, shooting into space. An intrepid lander collects samples and analyses them for hints of life.ESA has started to turn this scene into a reality, devising a mission to investigate an ocean world around either Jupiter or Saturn. But which moon should we choose? What should the mission do exactly? A team of expert scientists has delivered their findings.
#ESA paid a 30 percent premium over the standard launch price of $67 million 💵 for a #Falcon9 launch https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/03/its-official-europe-turns-to-the-falcon-9-to-launch-its-navigation-satellites/
The lack of #competition has made it difficult to hash out a competitive offer with the #EU 🇪🇺 https://www.politico.eu/article/iris-2-eu-satellite-project-germany-delay/
#Monopolies tend to become less efficient and less innovative over time, becoming "complacent", because they do not have to be efficient or innovative to compete in the marketplace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly#Monopoly_and_efficiency
#France 🇫🇷 and #Germany 🇩🇪 fund the majority of the Ariane 6 rocket's development costs. So, by rule, most of the design and manufacturing of the #Ariane6 rocket must take place in those nations. This strangles #competition among subcontractors and suppliers. https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/05/europe-seeks-to-emulate-nasas-revolutionary-commercial-cargo-program/2/
People writing about #SpaceExploration are mostly cheerleaders 🥳 for the cause, rather than independent observers 🔬 keeping a watchful eye 👁️ on how our national monies 💰 are spent. https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2022/06/23/new-book-paints-bleak-picture-of-nasas-human-spaceflight-program/
Former Deputy #NASA Administrator #LoriGarver
#Eutmetsat was not willing to entrust its new Meteosat #satellite 🛰️ to #Europe's 🇪🇺 #Ariane6 https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/06/mere-days-before-its-debut-the-ariane-6-rocket-loses-a-key-customer-to-spacex/
"The model of supply and demand applies to various markets" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
One might think that #European 🇪🇺 launch officials would have learned their lesson. But not everyone got 🦻 the message. The #Ariane6 will cost 💰 significantly more 📈 than the #Falcon9 rocket, which has similar capabilities. It likely will not realistically compete with a fully reusable Falcon 9. To say #Starship will not be a game-changer represents the same head-in-the-sand attitude displayed a decade ago. These officials #ignored 🙈🙉🙊 the rise of #reusability https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/06/some-european-launch-officials-still-have-their-heads-stuck-in-the-sand
#Ariane6 will be able to deliver 11.5 tonnes into geostationary orbit and 21.6 tonnes into #LEO. The rocket is not reusable 🗑️. #Falcon9 launched 350 times since 📆 2010, can take more than eight tonnes into geostationary orbit and nearly 23 tonnes into #LEO ⚖️🤔 https://phys.org/news/2024-07-ariane-big-rockets.html
Wolf480pl@spaceflight what do you propose the EU and ESA should do about that?
Jon PENNYCOOK@spaceflight Is there any benefit of #Ariane6 over #Ariane5 ? The payload mass sounds very similar, so is it cheaper? Given that people were thinking about reusable rockets in the 80s, I still can't understand what the point of the new launcher is.
Reusable Energia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia_(rocket)#Proposed_variants
@jfoust #ESA’s director of #space transportation : “Honestly, I don’t think #Starship will be a game-changer or a real competitor. Starship will not eradicate #Ariane6 at all” 🤦♂️. The response on social media to those comments was one of #ridicule 🤣 and #derision. https://spacenews.com/foust-forward-whos-afraid-of-the-big-bad-starship/
notsoloud@spaceflight
But Ariane 6 must go on anyway, no global power can go without domestic launch capability.
The question is who will be the first to copy just 20% of what SpaceX is doing?
@notsoloud the question is "whatever the price" ? 🤔 Japan already did it better, India too
@spaceflight
National security, whatever the price.
National security, whatever the price.
Ema@spaceflight "The response of social media was …". You quote yourself? 
Donald F Robertson@spaceflight Actually, Lori is one of the biggest advocates of human spaceflight, and even of the directions parts of NASA's human spaceflight endeavor are headed. It is the old guard that only want to copy what they perceive as the glory days of Apollo sixty years later that she fought at NASA and afterward.
SteveInIT@spaceflight "Bleak"? So basically, an overly optimistic article.
@spaceflight basically, noone wants to pay for a jobs program in another country
@wolf480pl such as this one ? 🤔🙄 https://techhub.social/@spaceflight/111230478082610445
Spaceflight 🚀 (@[email protected])
🇪🇺 #European taxpayers are subsidizing every launch of satellites for Jeff #Bezos by roughly $75 million. #ArianeGroup is asking for a substantial increase 📈 to 350 million euros 💰 a year. https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/10/oops-it-looks-like-the-ariane-6-rocket-may-not-offer-europe-any-launch-savings #Amazon #Kuiper
@spaceflight hmm I forgot the details about that one - does it go straight from EU budget, bypassing the geo-return rule?
@wolf480pl almost three quarters of #Amazon’s profits in the #EU were not taxed https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/eu-court-amazon-tax-deal-with-luxembourg-was-legal. The headquarters are in #Seattle. So where would you see the "return" ? 🤔. The EU budget isn't equal to #ESA's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Space_Agency#Member_states,_funding_and_budget
Amazon wins EU court fight over $300 million tax ruling
In the latest setback to European Union efforts to tackle corporate tax avoidance, a court annulled a ruling by the European Commission that a tax deal between Amazon and Luxembourg's government amounted to illegal state support.
@spaceflight I know the EU budget is not equal to ESA, which is why I'm asking which budget the ArianSpace subisdy comes from
In any case, whether Amazon's HQ is in Seattle is irrelevant. It's not Amazon that's being subsidized, it's ArianeSpace, and ArianeSpace creates jobs in EU, not in Seattle
You could even look at it that way: Amazon is subsidizing EU's military satellite launch vehicle
The problem is if the countries who pay to EU budget are not the ones in which ArianSpace creates jobs
@spaceflight and by "creates jobs" I don't just mean in the sense of fighting unemployment and keeping money at home, I also mean in terms of developing sovereign capabilities.
If all you wanted was to launch one satellite, the most efficient way to do this is pay SpaceX to launch it on Falcon 9.
But what European countries want is the _ability_ to maybe launch a satellite in the future without asking other countries for permission.
@wolf480pl whatever it costs, as it's anyway only taxpayer money 🙄
@spaceflight and how much is your country spending on its military?
anyway my point is, yes, those subsidies to ArianSpace look questionable. Also fuck Amazon.
But I think analyzing these things from a purely market-efficiency standpoint is a mistake. These are strategic capabilities, so geopolitics play a role in every decision, just like when buying weapons or building gas pipelines.
@wolf480pl so which part of this sentence did you misunderstand ? "🇪🇺 #European taxpayers are subsidizing every launch of satellites for Jeff #Bezos by roughly $75 million" https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/10/oops-it-looks-like-the-ariane-6-rocket-may-not-offer-europe-any-launch-savings/
@spaceflight the part where the article's author assumed that ArianeSpace would not receive that money if Amazon didn't book the launches.
The war in #Ukraine 🇺🇦 has left a deep impression on Europeans, and they have seen the value of secure #satellite 🛰️ Internet. The difficulty is in how to get there. The continent does not have a reusable rocket like #SpaceX's Falcon 9, nor the capacity to rapidly build hundreds of complex satellites. There is the challenge of coordinating such a complex endeavor across many different constituencies https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/05/europes-ambitious-satellite-internet-project-appears-to-be-running-into-trouble/
This article was updated on 16 April to remove mention of the constellation being a national alternative to #IRIS2. While that may still be the case, the evidence 🕵️ currently available suggests otherwise. https://europeanspaceflight.com/italy-moves-ahead-with-study-for-100-satellite-constellation
Here's the original title : #Italy 🇮🇹 moves ahead with study for national IRIS2 alternative https://europeanspaceflight.com/category/news/page/4/
#Germany 🇩🇪 has already made it known that it believes the #EU 🇪🇺 -backed #IRIS2 mega-constellation of super-secure satellites is too expensive 💰. A report in German newspaper #Handelsblatt suggests that the German army (#Bundeswehr) is backing an alternate orbiting satellite system. At the moment it is unclear whether Italy will ‘go it alone’ and sidestep #IRIS2 https://www.advanced-television.com/2025/04/17/italy-joins-germany-in-iris2-alternate-thoughts
#IRIS as a public-private partnership will likely need to be rethought 🤔 entirely. It’s facing major cost 💰 overruns and delays ⏳ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-iris-satellite-plan-spacex-starlink-elon-musk-military-grade-space-rise-airbus-thales-alenia-space/
With #IRIS the #EU 🇪🇺 is "trying to do something new the old way. Totally new entities are thriving, deploying capabilities at speed and cost that are unthinkable for some of the established prime contractors" https://www.politico.eu/article/elon-musk-space-internet-satellite-rafal-modrzewski-iceye-europe
While the #EU 🇪🇺 has never had a #SpaceCommissioner, there is a need to zone in on a sector that McKinsey estimates will be worth $1.8 trillion 💰 by 📆 2035. Kubilius' mission letter does not mention any potential big new #SpaceProgram. While #ESA spends billions 💰 on #science and exploration projects, the #EuropeanCommission needs extra cash 💶 to build out #IRIS https://www.politico.eu/article/andrius-kubilius-defense-space-commissioner-budget-european-space-agency-cooperation
🇺🇸 Some less sensitive #satellite and #spacecraft parts and components will no longer require licences for shipment to #Canada, #Australia, #Japan, #SouthKorea and most of the #EuropeanUnion (and over 40 countries) https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/3282817/us-ease-restrictions-space-related-exports-allies
🇪🇺 Europe's #satellite manufacturers are struggling to cope with the arrival of #Starlink, developed by #SpaceX, which already accounts for some two-thirds of satellites in orbit. They also face a drop 📉 in demand for large commercial satellites.
#Airbus and #ThalesAlenia Space will remain in the #IRIS² project, but as suppliers instead of full consortium members. https://www.reuters.com/technology/eu-kick-starts-new-secure-satellite-constellation-2024-12-16/
#Airbus and #ThalesAlenia Space will remain in the #IRIS² project, but as suppliers instead of full consortium members. https://www.reuters.com/technology/eu-kick-starts-new-secure-satellite-constellation-2024-12-16/
🇮🇹 "The #EuropeanUnion needs to deliver faster decisions and clearer rules to make the bloc's #SpaceSector #competitive and investor-friendly" https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/italy-urges-tighter-european-cooperation-compete-space-2024-10-14/
Rhetorical language and bold declarations 📣 are inspiring, but when it comes to securing #Europe’s 🇪🇺 place in the global #SpaceRace, adopted policy and appropriated funding 💶 are where aspirations are tested. Without concrete investments, streamlined regulations, and clear strategic priorities, Europe’s ambition to once again lead the global launch market is likely to amount to little. https://europeanspaceflight.com/eu-commission-calls-for-faster-progress-on-launcher-development
Investments in #space startups rose 12% to $8.1 billion in the 12 months to March, with the number of deals in #Europe 🇪🇺 rising nearly 50% 📈 in the first quarter. "More protectionist trade policies could slow development in the short term, as many advanced space technologies depend on global supply chains" https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/space-startups-face-uncertainty-us-cuts-federal-spending-report-says-2025-04-11
“I hear lots of questions about why we’re launching with #Falcon and not with #Ariane" https://spacenews.com/falcon-9-launches-esas-earthcare-mission/
Tergenev has moved@spaceflight
I bet they do.
I bet they do.
#German 🇩🇪 with #English 🇬🇧 subtitles 🚀💰 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nB8okbHG0g
ARIANE 6 RAKETE: Europas Hoffnungsträger startklar - Milliardenprojekt oder Milliardengrab?
Watch The Ariane 6 Launch For The First Time!
🇫🇷 #LeMonde "The program will now have to offer attractive prices 💶 and win new orders facing the competition of Elon Musk" https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2024/07/10/avec-le-succes-du-lancement-d-ariane-6-l-europe-retrouve-l-acces-a-l-espace_6248288_3234.html
Avec le succès du lancement d’Ariane-6, l’Europe retrouve l’accès à l’espace
La fusée européenne a réussi son vol de qualification, mardi, faisant oublier quatre années de retard. Le programme devra désormais proposer des prix attractifs et engranger de nouvelles commandes face à la concurrence d’Elon Musk.
The APU #malfunction had several consequences for the remainder of the test flight. The upper stage will remain in #LEO, likely for decades ⏳. The #Ariane6 upper stage autonomously canceled the command to deploy two return craft as they would not have been able to complete their missions because they relied on the #Vinci engine to guide them to their reentry targets. https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/07/europes-first-ariane-6-flight-achieved-most-of-its-goals-but-ended-prematurely/3
#Eumetsat has just canceled the launch of one of its devices with the #European 🇪🇺 rocket, choosing #SpaceX instead. This decision, taken just a few days before Tuesday's launch, appears to be a sign of #mistrust 🤔🙄 https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2024/07/10/ariane-6-a-small-step-for-europe-in-space_6680074_23.html
"#Ariane6 is no longer competitive with #Falcon9, this we have to face". Expensive 💰, delayed ⏳ and no longer cutting-edge tech. “In 📆 2014 there was a fork in the road, and we didn’t take the right path”. The #LaunchCost will be upward of €100 million 💰. The response? A very #European 🇪🇺 plea for protection and #government aid. https://www.politico.eu/article/how-europe-screwed-up-its-rocket-program/
#Ariane64 can launch payloads of around 11,500 kg into geostationary transfer orbit and 21,600 kg into #LEO. The #FalconHeavy 63,800 kilograms, Starship 100,000 to 150,000 kgs to #LEO https://www.inverse.com/science/innovation/ariane-6-vs-spacex
#CNN 📆 July 9, 2024 It’s not yet clear 🙈 how much the #rocket will ultimately cost per launch. The vehicle cost about 4 billion € 💰 to develop, and officials have indicated they hope 🙏 the per-launch cost will be well under $100 million. In comparison, #SpaceX’s #Falcon9 rocket has a base price of $67 million and can carry slightly more tonnage into #LEO https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/09/science/ariane-6-rocket-launch-debut-europe/index.html
#Europe's 🇪🇺 future in the space sector requires a new organization, along the lines of what #NASA achieved more than 20 years ago 👊. #Ariane6 will have to compete with Musk's #Starship and Jeff Bezos' #NewGlenn. At a time when the larger nations (the #US 🇺🇸, #China 🇨🇳, #India 🇮🇳 and #Japan 🇯🇵) are stepping up space activities, #Europe must get into fighting mode if it is not to fall irretrievably behind. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2024/07/10/ariane-6-a-small-step-for-europe-in-space_6680074_23.html
Aaron Sawdey, Ph.D.@spaceflight Not really a surprise .. from 2011:
"What I'm discovering in the market is that SpaceX primarily seems to be selling a dream, which is good. We should all dream," Bowles replied. "I think a $5 million launch or a $15 million launch is a bit of a dream. Personally, I think reusability is a dream. How am I going to respond to a dream? My answer to respond to a dream is, first of all, you don't wake people up."
And of course it's an Eric Berger article: https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/06/some-european-launch-officials-still-have-their-heads-stuck-in-the-sand/
⊥ᵒᵚ Cᵸᵎᶺᵋᶫ∸ᵒᵘ ☑️@spaceflight which is impossible for a non-reusable design that launches every few months
Zoidtes@falken @spaceflight few months?! I hope so! But I barely believe that Europe is that eager.
The Europeans have a drive for other topics but not for the technological future of Europe. Sadly.
I assume that the next launch may be by the end of the year or next year 🙃.
Europe needs more competition in the rocket business, otherwise Europe will be stuck with bicycles as their highest form of technology
Mike Bell@falken @spaceflight from the stream yesterday they said the rocket had a 2 week turnaround. I'd like to think it's true but the clients need to be there for it to work.
@mikebell @spaceflight turn what around? It's not reusable.
@falken @spaceflight I guess they meant the launchpad which is a bit of a shame. I'd assumed they meant at least some of the rocket but a bit of searching says no. There is SUSIE but it's only a proposal.
Michael Gemar@spaceflight I'm very doubtful Ariane will have the necessary capacity in that timeframe.
@michaelgemar especially as they sold it partly to Amazon, that's certainly the way I'd like to know my money to be invested, really scientific 🤦