Kevin Karhan 
Elaina 
إلينا@Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis they'd have to basically invent the entire 3D stack and bring it up to speed or at least on-par with #Linux.
Last time I checked #FreeBSD didn't even support #Vulkan...
Both Nintendo and Sony have their own proprietary frameworks and pipelines to do 3D and 2D and not even support like 100% of OpenGL ES 3.1 which is the basis of Vulkan 1.0
@Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis np.
In case of #Sony I did have a chance to look into the documentation when setting up a #DevKit according to their specs for a client.
In fact, whilst rudimentary #OpenGL is supported on #PS3 and up, #PSSL (PlayStation Shader Languague) is the prefered option to do shaders and even physics, and Naighty Dog really leveraged the #Cell SPEs for physics effects.
Which are notoriusly hard to develop for...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4UHgOR9o-U
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(processor)#SPE
PS3 - Behind the Architecture of One of the Most Complicated Consoles of All Time
@Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis in fact it was so infamous for being hard to code for that #Gaben ranted aboit it in public:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKYT6NzsUZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKYT6NzsUZQ
Gabe Newell rants about development on the Playstation 3
@Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis Amd #MVG broke it down into details:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW3XawAsaeU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW3XawAsaeU
Why was the Sony PlayStation 3 so hard to develop games for ? | MVG
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@Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis also whilst they don't use #BigEndian #PowerPC like the #Xbox360 they require extensive optimization to be efficient and run well.
Otherwise noone would pay #Unity $$$$$ to be bale to outsorce 99% of that work to them:
Why YOU need a Modded Xbox 360 in 2018 - The History, Custom Dashboards, Emulators, and More ! | MVG
@Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis IOW: #Sony amd #Nintendo chose #FreeBSD because on #Linux they'd likely have to #FLOSS the entire #DRM and #3D stack to the point that it would be trivial to #cleanroom & #blackbox - engineer a compatible system just from the published sourcecode.
That's why #Apple yeeted #bash & #GCC once it went #GPLv3 and #Android yeeted #BusyBox when they did the same and now ise #toybox (maintained by @landley ) released under #0BSD license...
@Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis @landley and #Console #PlatformOwners don't want an #OpenPlatform.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo&t=81s
Whereas #Valve uses the #SteamDeck as a consumer acquisition tool to increase sales and playtime.
They sell it at marginal profit and care about public reputation more than immediate profitability, because #Steam is already a working #MoneyPrinter and the SteamDeck is just a client to access Steam...
Guarding Against Physical Attacks: The Xbox One Story — Tony Chen, Microsoft
Rob Landley@kkarhan @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis In business circles they usually attribute this business model to Gillette, "give away the razor and sell the blades". Game consoles have sold cheap for a long time.
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/08/27/business/sony-keeps-reducing-playstation-prices.html
Sony Keeps Reducing Playstation Prices
Sony Computer Entertainment America reduces cost of its Playstation console by $20, to $129 after Nintendo offers consumers $22 rebate on its $150 Nintendo 64 system; analyst says consumers expect prices to come down, and lower prices have triggered uptick in sales (M)
@landley @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis Exactly!
It's also why the #3DO failed and why #LaserDisc remained expensive over it's lifespan and #DVD as well as #bluray only became affordable mass-market products once cheap Single-Board & SoC options hit OEM wholesale sites...
Tony Chen from #Microsoft literally admits to the "Razer and Blades" model, because #Xbox makes money with their #paywalled #Multiplayer and #licensing "tax" for every disc & game sold for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo&t=81s
Guarding Against Physical Attacks: The Xbox One Story — Tony Chen, Microsoft
@landley @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis in fact #Sony's #PS3 was so heavily subsidized at launch that Sony sold them for half the cost of manufacturing and even if a customer bought every game and bluray available at launch they'd still loose money...
Only with the slim model of the PlayStation 3 did Sony reach at-cost pricing...
Rob Landley (@[email protected])
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] In business circles they usually attribute this business model to Gillette, "give away the razor and sell the blades". Game consoles have sold cheap for a long time. https://www.nytimes.com/1998/08/27/business/sony-keeps-reducing-playstation-prices.html
@landley @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis
In that sense, #Valve's #SteamDeck acts kinda similar as it's a tool to make #Steam users buy more games, play more games and acquire new customers that don't want or can't afford a #PC or #laptop.
It also acts as a #devkit and #baseline for #LinuxGaming and Valve deciding not to make it a walled garden is a decision aimed to cultivate the #parasocial relationship with their customer base that they want to make believe to be friends with...
@landley @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis It's kinda like #macOS:
Shure you can #sideload apps on a #Mac that #Apple doesn't allow in it's #AppStore but we all know users are lazy amd prefer convenience.
I mean, I am a lazy IT person because I use @ubuntu as daily driver as I can't be bothered with #Windows' shenanigans...
/me trying to build a Toybox+musl/Linux distro and to force it onto a 1440kB FDD is more of a personal challenge than immediate necessity...
@landley @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis @ubuntu ...and also because I think #LinuxFromScratch is too boring (been there, done that) and I'd rather have some minimalist rescue system I could automatically build :
- preconfigured to Reverse-SSH to a known endpoint
- have all the essential tools at my disposal
- allow for emergency recovery and repair if need be
- require no intervention beyond booting it.
@landley @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis
For the circumstances when I can't just SSH into a System or have a User open #Dayon! and do some Remote Support...
Also sorry for my tangent away from the original post...
Jaime Herazo@kkarhan @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis @ubuntu Regression test building LFS under each new "minimal native development environment" root file system I make from toybox and tinycc and so on is sort of like math people proving that this problem is equivalent to an earlier already solved one.
Building Linux from Scratch proves I CAN bootstrap up to arbitrary complexity, up to and including building Red hat or Debian from source under that system. It's the build version of turing complete.
@landley @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis @ubuntu And I think it's good and honorable.
I guess my goals with OS/1337 are way simpler and more primitive (i.e. just let me ssh into a machine and allow me to recover data using ddrescue).
I'd not optimize towards #LinuxFromScratch but I'd also not actively work against that, since I have no time for the former and no interest in being an asshole.
But feel free to fiddle with it...
https://github.com/OS-1337/OS1337
@landley
I just think that #Floppinux is a good idea but #BusyBox is meh and #toybox is a better alternative to it.
https://hackaday.com/2020/07/08/the-latest-linux-on-a-floppy-in-a-486/
https://archive.org/details/floppinux-manual/
https://archive.org/details/floppinux_0.1.0
Also thanks to @SweetAIBelle and some digging I may be on track to get OS/1337 to boot...
https://github.com/w84death/floppinux/issues/2#issuecomment-850016706
@kkarhan @SweetAIBelle I was started down this path via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomsrtbt
Eric Anderson, the busy box maintainer I inherited it from, used to maintain a Debian uclibc system, but gave up when buildroot ate his time. I keep meaning to try to put together a Debian musl-libc system (and populate an apt-server with the architecture, building all the thousands of packages), but my todo list runneth over...
@landley @SweetAIBelle tbh, #tmsrtbt is one of the inspirations for OS/1337 - alongside #Floppinux...
Granted, #Dropbear and (tiny-) #curl / #wget are more versatile applications for me than #vi cuz a bootable #Floppy from which I could download everything that can't fit on it is an acceptable compromise as I can't defy gravity or rather the "sonic wall" that is the 1.440kB a 3,5" FDD have.
Ideally I'd even be able to fit on a 1.200kB 5,25" but not necessarily.
@kkarhan @Lulukaros @chrisoffner3d @vaartis @ubuntu Linux from Scratch is the simplest most explicit way to manually bootstrap the legacy gnu/dammit ecosystem the largest distros still sprawl atop. If a package works on Linux at _all_, it works there, so it's dependency chain is covered.
It's been consistently maintained for 20 years and explains why it does each step rather than having implicit black magic all over the place. (And it has a non-systemd version, which is non-negotiable for me.)