Zoarial94 Apr 28
Tinker ☀️

I grew up steeped in the "I would die for my country" or "I would die for my children" or "He died for our sins" where death was the ultimate showing of love...

...I have to sit with that.

But what I want to know is... Would you live for your country? Would you build for your children (and their children)? Would you help out your neighbor even if they don't follow your god?

Would you fix. Would you love. Would you grow, heal, and cherish for those around you?

Death is easy. Life is hard.

The greatest showing of love is to live and to help others live and to increase that quality of life.

Apr 28 at 3:24pmWeb
Show threadJohnsNotHereApr 28
@tinker Well said my friend.
Show threadMaggie MaybeApr 28

@tinker have you read this thread by “Design mom”? It’s fantastic (don’t let the Bible reference turn you away, she makes excellent points.)

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1225052129238421505.html

#DesignMom #protectors

Thread by @designmom on Thread Reader App

@designmom: When I hear men worshipping guns and talking about how there’s nothing that will stop them from defending their family, my mind goes to Naaman in the Bible. Do you remember Naaman? He was a great...…

Show threadTinker ☀️Apr 28
@maggiejk - Thank you, I'll check it out!
Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500Apr 28

@tinker

I certainly would not “for my country”. Neither live nor die.

Agreeing with the rest.

Show threadTinker ☀️Apr 28

@Saupreiss - Yeah, I grew up with fierce nationalism and jingoism. Fierce. It's still around me even now, even as I've been able to get out from under those groups.

Just proper steeped in it here.

So that "would you...for your country" is directed towards that type of person and mindset.

Nationalism is rot.

Show threadJess👾Apr 28
I suppose at this point it would depend on what the war is about. If it's a civil war vs fascists or from an invading Russian army or something, then maybe? But some "let's go Spread Freedom to the global South" ... Yeah fuck that noise.
@tinker @Saupreiss
Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500Apr 28

@JessTheUnstill

I might, but for sure not out of patriotism…
(I fail to see what I should have with some people in common except that some man-made law defines me as a citizen of the same place like someone else; and I fail to feel more connected to them than anyone else.)

@tinker

Show threadJess👾Apr 28
Yeah, for sure not "patriotism", but "defend my community from harm" ... maybe.
@Saupreiss @tinker
Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500Apr 28

@JessTheUnstill

What makes a member of „my community“? And why is a person outside “my community” worth less than one inside?

Yes, I am not free of that thinking and without any doubt I would kill for my children, like most folks would. It’s still wrong to do so.

@tinker

Show threadJess👾Apr 28

I mean, it's a reductive answer, but "my community" is who I have decided it is, and who has decided wants me included in theirs. TBH, I'm going to work harder to help people in my own neighborhood and city than I am people in cities far away from me. I have the most awareness of what the problems and needs of those who are close to me, and I'm more confident I'm not flying in as some "white savior" to "solve problems", then fly home.

It's certainly not a perfect answer, but I only got two hands and 24 hours in a day. I can't help everyone in the world, so I prioritize the ones in my grasp.

@Saupreiss @tinker

Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500Apr 28

@JessTheUnstill

That selection is a natural thing, yet quite a selfish one (pointing at myself here as well, dont get me wrong).

That‘s why it‘s so important to try to understand legit interests of those outside of that chosen community: They might have the same right to forcefully defend themselves. And fascists are pretty good abusing these Sentiments for their own agendas.

@tinker

Show threadVincarsiApr 28
@Saupreiss @JessTheUnstill @tinker I don't think being willing to sacrifice for your community means people outside your community are worth less. I think that's a very reductive view. It's a principle of reciprocity though that you have a responsibility to the organisms you benefit from. ie; If you hunt, you should put effort into conservation of habitat. If you experience love and joy as and safety because of a group of people, it's only fair you help to defend them if/when the need arises.
Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500Apr 28

@Vincarsi

…and if everyone is well off, I‘m not likely to be attacked.

@JessTheUnstill @tinker

Show threadVincarsiApr 28
@Saupreiss @JessTheUnstill @tinker honestly I think a societal shift away from the paradigm of dominance and replacing that with reciprocity is the only reasonable way to achieve sustainability.
Show threadTinker ☀️Apr 28

@JessTheUnstill - Ah, Jess, I don't believe it was your intent, but this kind of edge case response borders on strawmanning.

There is a very wide gulf between the jingoistic (celebration of military violence) call of "dying for one's country" or "I would kill for my children" to the very normal and healthy "I'd protect my kids and neighbors from harm."

Right.

So where does that very thick line fall?

Well, are you celebrating the death and killing as the EPITOME of civic and familial action? Are you looking forward to or even making the excuse to or even bringing about the causes of a situation where you might get to execute a cheerful violence?!

Or...

Are you being mindful of your surroundings, teaching your children bodily autonomy, standing up to bullies while using deescalation, and only using violence in a proportional and direct manner to stop another's violence from hurting people?

Punching a nazi is good and all, but I'd MUCH RATHER there not be nazis at all.

So I spend my time dismantling the apparatus that allows for nazis. I spend my time tearing down their signs. I spend my time addressing the root causes of nazism. And, if a nazi threatens someone and the ONLY WAY TO PROTECT THEM is to either take the nazi down or to put my body between the nazi and the other person... fine... but I will not celebrate that instance. That will be an instance to mourn, to grieve, and to use as an example of why we need to continue to build and love and support and prevent violence.

Show threadtusooa  西风  Apr 28
@JessTheUnstill @tinker @Saupreiss There's no war but class war.
Show threadjackApr 28
@tinker "I would kill and/or die for my family" yeah but will you do the dishes for them
Show threadTinker ☀️Apr 28
@jackeric - right?
Show threadrk: could be an enumApr 28

@tinker @jackeric

“An American will cross an ocean to fight a war but won’t cross the street to vote.”

Show threadEstarriol, lucozade dragonApr 28

@jackeric @tinker

I have 1 family member left and I would happily kill him, does that count?

Show threadMaggie MaybeApr 28

@jackeric @tinker that’s the whole point of Design Mom’s thread I dropped further up.

Men talking about how they would do anything to protect their family if it means they get to do violence, but not if it means they have to teach their children to wash their hands to protect them from germs, or if it means they have to prepare good dinner every night to protect them from malnutrition.

Show threadmk306d ago
@jackeric exactly
Show threadDavid Penfold Apr 28
@tinker Amen 🫙🌳🛠️
Show threadUrzlApr 28
@tinker
I really love this song because it's right on target for this kind of thought process.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ls-tOa_f7KE&feature=shared
Dirty

YouTube
Show threadWillow, Venus Pirate 🏳️‍⚧️Apr 28
@tinker THIS! Living as an example, being who you are, and building something with others, is so much more meaningful than dying performatively for them. And so much more meaningful than TALKING about dying performatively.
Show threadPapyrusBrigadeApr 28

@tinker I had a similar exchange with someone over the weekend with someone about his desire to protect cis women from trans women in bathrooms.

Having received my fair share of sexual harassment over the years, zero has come from trans women.

I said if he really wanted to protect women: support shelters so they don't stay trapped in abuse. Support higher min wage, public transit. Daycare. Affordable housing. Food security. Reproductive rights.

Don't beat up folk in bathrooms.

Show threadTinker ☀️Apr 28
@PapyrusBrigade - Exactly.
Show threadMaggie MaybeApr 28

@PapyrusBrigade @tinker please tell dudes like him that unless we ask him for help he can mind his own fucking business.

I will ask other women for help if I need help before I’ll turn to a man like that, and a trans woman would help me before a man like him would ever even consider helping me unless he wanted something from me.

I’ve never been afraid of being in a bathroom with a trans woman, but the idea of being in a bathroom with a man like that is terrifying to me.

Show threadmk306d ago
@PapyrusBrigade totally. Trans women in bathrooms are not a threat to cis women.
Show threadShufei 🧮Apr 28
@tinker It is extra hard to pursue life in times of war and decay. But that is what autumn is about, I hazard.
Show threadJohn H "looking for work"    Apr 28
@tinker
Well said. Thanks for that.
Show threadPhillip Apr 28
@tinker @darfplatypus “Dying is easy, young man
Living is harder”
Show threadJonathan HartleyApr 28
@tinker It maybe isn't the optimal tactic but I have enjoyed causing a kerfuffle by responding to the silence of assumed consent after heartfelt expressions of willingness to die for one's country by chattily exclaiming "Oh wow no I would NOT do that, that seems like a terrible deal!" It stretches the Overton window and allows the beginnings of thought about why one might want - or not want - to do that.
Show threadLarge Heydon ColliderApr 28
@tinker "I will/would die" is just a claim of masculinity, not an expression of love or even care.
Show threads427Apr 29
@heydon @tinker made me think of
Show threadkenanApr 29
@s427 @heydon @tinker Amazing🤣
Show threadAnu LahtinenApr 28
@tinker This is precisely the protest that I read in Louisa M Alcott's (of all authors) books when growing up a couple of light years ago. In several occasions in her books, someone stated lightly "I'm glad to die for..." and the protagonists retorted: "It is much more difficult and therefore more honourable to LIVE for the cause". So I fully agree!
Show threadTheDudeApr 28
@tinker wow did I need this today, thank you!
Show threadquintessence Apr 28

@tinker

THANK YOU for this.

Show threadLisanne LombardoApr 28
@tinker So true!
Show threadcyApr 28
I would, but I didn't get to have any children, or a country really. My neighbors never go outside. So whatever. Fuck y'all.
Show threadMx. Luna CorbdenApr 28

@tinker @Vincarsi I read a history book once, I think it was How The Irish Saved Civilization, that talked about how religious hermits created a new concept of martyrdom: the green martyr, one who "gave their life" to Christ not by dying, but by living.

And that trend led to universities, as such hermits began congregating and collecting books.

I think that's the concept here. Only with less retreating from society.

(Though I wouldn't mind congregating with other hermits and collecting books....)

Show threadFjord In ProgressApr 28
@tinker @corbden I always saw it as a selfless act or sacrifice where one would “suffer greatly instead of being compliantly silent or actively collaborating with wrongness; a putting of oneself in the path of danger to spare the one /many from harm” instead of “the easy way out” of death where death is viewed as a release from suffering for the one at the expense of the other / many.
Show threadTinker ☀️Apr 28
@semiotic_pirate @corbden - (Editing this response to address the idea professed.) Yeah, if that's their take, then my response is, "neat. So what will you do in the meantime. Between now and your valiant death?"
Show threadMx. Luna CorbdenApr 28
@tinker @semiotic_pirate I think Fjord is in agreement?
Show threadTinker ☀️Apr 28
@corbden @semiotic_pirate - Maybe? I might have misread. If Fjord is in agreement, then my apologies. I would then direct my statement to anyone who supports that professed line of reasoning.
Show threadFjord In ProgressApr 28
@tinker @corbden This reminds me of a letter by a mom on bird site telling the “manly” gun-toting family “protectors” that they’d better protect them by vaccinating them, teaching them to wash their hands, and all the regular day-to-day skilled parent activities.
Show threadCelestine (Comms Open)Apr 28
@tinker unfortunately reminded of this Hamilton line "dieing is easy young man, living is harder"
Show threadAnalyst Hyacinth, in the mossApr 28
@tinker 💜
Show threadGranny Art (Shrimp) (Joni)Apr 28
@tinker thank you
Show threadMoriel Apr 28

@tinker

In the 90's TV show Babylon 5, an ancient being, the oldest in the galaxy, asked the character John Sheridan this question:

What do you have worth *living* for?

It's an important question that everyone should answer.

Show threadStephanie ApplebyApr 28
@tinker Yes I would!
Show threadHal PomeranzApr 28

@tinker @dbdean I was reminded of a scene from a movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LWJdzXDSmQ

The Outlaw Josey Wales | I Came Here to Die | World of Warner Bros.

YouTube
Show threadiveylineApr 29
@tinker Well said.
Show threadCoachApr 29

@tinker This is beautifully said.

Thank you.

Show threadmk306d ago
@tinker excellent perspective. I read something once about how part of the myth of masculinity is that you'd be willing to pay "the ultimate price" in a dramatic situation, like a hero in a movie who starts out as an Everyman and has to risk his life to kill the alien or whatever. And while men who buy into this idea of masculinity might grapple with and accept the gravity of thisresponsibility (to possibly take life or sacrifice their own life as an act of protection), they may not be willing to do the everyday things that make life possible: taking care of kids and home, etc. for most people, that heroic moment of sacrifice never comes, and meanwhile they're leaving the dishes and cooking to someone else.