Tinker ☀️Apr 28

I grew up steeped in the "I would die for my country" or "I would die for my children" or "He died for our sins" where death was the ultimate showing of love...

...I have to sit with that.

But what I want to know is... Would you live for your country? Would you build for your children (and their children)? Would you help out your neighbor even if they don't follow your god?

Would you fix. Would you love. Would you grow, heal, and cherish for those around you?

Death is easy. Life is hard.

The greatest showing of love is to live and to help others live and to increase that quality of life.

Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500

@tinker

I certainly would not “for my country”. Neither live nor die.

Agreeing with the rest.

Apr 28 at 3:29pmWeb
Show threadTinker ☀️Apr 28

@Saupreiss - Yeah, I grew up with fierce nationalism and jingoism. Fierce. It's still around me even now, even as I've been able to get out from under those groups.

Just proper steeped in it here.

So that "would you...for your country" is directed towards that type of person and mindset.

Nationalism is rot.

Show threadJess👾Apr 28
I suppose at this point it would depend on what the war is about. If it's a civil war vs fascists or from an invading Russian army or something, then maybe? But some "let's go Spread Freedom to the global South" ... Yeah fuck that noise.
@tinker @Saupreiss
Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500Apr 28

@JessTheUnstill

I might, but for sure not out of patriotism…
(I fail to see what I should have with some people in common except that some man-made law defines me as a citizen of the same place like someone else; and I fail to feel more connected to them than anyone else.)

@tinker

Show threadJess👾Apr 28
Yeah, for sure not "patriotism", but "defend my community from harm" ... maybe.
@Saupreiss @tinker
Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500Apr 28

@JessTheUnstill

What makes a member of „my community“? And why is a person outside “my community” worth less than one inside?

Yes, I am not free of that thinking and without any doubt I would kill for my children, like most folks would. It’s still wrong to do so.

@tinker

Show threadJess👾Apr 28

I mean, it's a reductive answer, but "my community" is who I have decided it is, and who has decided wants me included in theirs. TBH, I'm going to work harder to help people in my own neighborhood and city than I am people in cities far away from me. I have the most awareness of what the problems and needs of those who are close to me, and I'm more confident I'm not flying in as some "white savior" to "solve problems", then fly home.

It's certainly not a perfect answer, but I only got two hands and 24 hours in a day. I can't help everyone in the world, so I prioritize the ones in my grasp.

@Saupreiss @tinker

Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500Apr 28

@JessTheUnstill

That selection is a natural thing, yet quite a selfish one (pointing at myself here as well, dont get me wrong).

That‘s why it‘s so important to try to understand legit interests of those outside of that chosen community: They might have the same right to forcefully defend themselves. And fascists are pretty good abusing these Sentiments for their own agendas.

@tinker

Show threadVincarsiApr 28
@Saupreiss @JessTheUnstill @tinker I don't think being willing to sacrifice for your community means people outside your community are worth less. I think that's a very reductive view. It's a principle of reciprocity though that you have a responsibility to the organisms you benefit from. ie; If you hunt, you should put effort into conservation of habitat. If you experience love and joy as and safety because of a group of people, it's only fair you help to defend them if/when the need arises.
Show threadSaupreiss #Präparat500Apr 28

@Vincarsi

…and if everyone is well off, I‘m not likely to be attacked.

@JessTheUnstill @tinker

Show threadVincarsiApr 28
@Saupreiss @JessTheUnstill @tinker honestly I think a societal shift away from the paradigm of dominance and replacing that with reciprocity is the only reasonable way to achieve sustainability.
Show threadTinker ☀️Apr 28

@JessTheUnstill - Ah, Jess, I don't believe it was your intent, but this kind of edge case response borders on strawmanning.

There is a very wide gulf between the jingoistic (celebration of military violence) call of "dying for one's country" or "I would kill for my children" to the very normal and healthy "I'd protect my kids and neighbors from harm."

Right.

So where does that very thick line fall?

Well, are you celebrating the death and killing as the EPITOME of civic and familial action? Are you looking forward to or even making the excuse to or even bringing about the causes of a situation where you might get to execute a cheerful violence?!

Or...

Are you being mindful of your surroundings, teaching your children bodily autonomy, standing up to bullies while using deescalation, and only using violence in a proportional and direct manner to stop another's violence from hurting people?

Punching a nazi is good and all, but I'd MUCH RATHER there not be nazis at all.

So I spend my time dismantling the apparatus that allows for nazis. I spend my time tearing down their signs. I spend my time addressing the root causes of nazism. And, if a nazi threatens someone and the ONLY WAY TO PROTECT THEM is to either take the nazi down or to put my body between the nazi and the other person... fine... but I will not celebrate that instance. That will be an instance to mourn, to grieve, and to use as an example of why we need to continue to build and love and support and prevent violence.

Show threadtusooa  西风  Apr 28
@JessTheUnstill @tinker @Saupreiss There's no war but class war.