Robert Nouwen, Rome & de Lage Landen (3)

De heuvel met het Karthaagse paleis in Cartagena

[Derde deel van de tekst van mijn toespraakje bij de presentatie van Rome en de Lage Landen van Robert Nouwen, afgelopen zaterdag in het Rijksmuseum van Oudheden in Leiden. Het eerste deel was hier.]

Doelgroepen

Sta me wat oververeenvoudiging toe en laat me het publiek verdelen in mensen met hoge en lage informatiebehoefte.

Hoge informatiebehoefteTweede lijn: verdiepende informatie & rechtvaardiging van de informatieKnow how?
Know why?Lage informatiebehoefteEerste lijn: algemene informatieKnow what?

Op het eerste niveau constateren we bijvoorbeeld dat de Romeinen in pakweg Utrecht hun olijfolie importeerden uit Andalusië; op het tweede leggen we vervolgens uit wat Dressel-20-amforen ons vertellen. Waar de behoefte aan verdiepende informatie precies ligt, valt af te leiden uit de vragen die mensen stellen. Musea hebben daar zicht op, en u begrijpt dat ik daarmee eigenlijk zeg dat een museumdirecteur als Robert Nouwen begrijpt wat op het spel staat.

Een kwart van de gestelde vragen betreft hoe oudheidkundigen weten wat ze weten. We kunnen op het tweede niveau dus tevens uitleggen wat een verspreidingskaart van Dressel-20-amforen vertelt en met welke proxydata de olijfoliehandel is gekwantificeerd. Een goede voorlichting bedient, in deze oververeenvoudigde weergave, beide groepen.

De sleuteldoelgroep

Echter, mensen met een hoge informatiebehoefte komen er momenteel doorgaans bekaaid vanaf. De oudheidkundige voorlichting beperkt zich veelal tot de eerste lijn. Vaak wordt dezelfde, eenvoudige en niet zelden verouderde of zelfs ronduit onjuiste informatie herhaald, en te vaak geloven juist geïnteresseerde mensen de claims niet langer. Deze week was er leuk nieuws over de ontdekking van de regels van een Romeins spel, en van begin af aan was er kritiek op de berichtgeving.

We mogen wel enig vertrouwen hebben in de wetenschap, en dan maakt dit wantrouwen de oudheidkundige wetenschappen nodeloos kwetsbaar. Ik noem nog eens de Nijmeegse aquaductenaffaire: uw gemeente wil een toeristisch wandelpad aanleggen langs het aquaduct bij uw achtertuin, maar kan niet uitleggen waarom archeologen weten dat daar een aquaduct is. Dan zet u de hakken in het zand, hijst de rode vlag en gaat, zoals dat tegenwoordig heet, “zelf onderzoek doen”. Met deze wetenschapsscepsis erbij krijgen we een tweede schema.

WetenschapspositiefSceptischHoge informatiebehoefteTweede lijn: verdiepende informatie & rechtvaardiging van de informatieDerde lijn: gesprekkenLage informatiebehoefteEerste lijn: algemene informatie–

De eerste lijn is het algemene aanbod, in de tweede lijn leggen we uit waarop dat is gebaseerd en in de derde lijn proberen we sceptici ervan te overtuigen waarom de wetenschappelijke methode de meest redelijke is. Dat vergt een persoonlijk gesprek waarin de voorlichter een onderscheid aanbrengt tussen enerzijds de wetenschap en anderzijds de bezorgdheid die de betrokkene ervan weerhoudt de methode te aanvaarden. Zo’n gesprek – ik spreek uit ervaring – is tijdrovend. Wil je dat vermijden, dan moet de tweede lijn op orde zijn. Al vóór de problemen ontstaan moet de eerstelijns-informatie zijn gerechtvaardigd.

De tweede lijn dient dus om proactief scepsis te bestrijden. Je verhindert dat mensen met een hoge informatiebehoefte teleurgesteld “zelf onderzoek gaan doen”. Maar er is nog een reden om de tweede lijn serieus te nemen. Je kunt deze mensen ook inzetten vóór de wetenschap. Zij zijn de sleuteldoelgroep: zij kunnen de wetenschap niet alleen beschadigen maar kunnen het wetenschappelijk signaal ook versterken en beschermen.

Ik noem Spanje, waar archeologische musea uitleg bieden van wat oudheidkundigen feitelijk doen. Toen bijvoorbeeld de gemeente Cartagena een bouwvergunning afgaf voor een project waarbij de sporen van een Karthaags paleis dreigden te worden overbouwd, kwam de bevolking in het geweer. De archeologen hadden, door de sleuteldoelgroep te bedienen, hun vak verankerd in het culturele leven en zo de wetenschap beschermd.

Nouwen als communicator

Het is dus niet omdat alle kritiek volledig valt te pareren dat ik pleit voor “Public Understanding of Science”. Die ene procent dwarsliggers bereik je sowieso niet. Wat we met verdieping en methodische uitleg wél bereiken, is dat de groep van pakweg 20% die anti-wetenschappelijk worden kan, niet eveneens wegdrijft. Bovendien kunnen we, door de sleuteldoelgroep meer aandacht te geven dan tegenwoordig het geval is, oudheidkundige kennis cultureel verankeren. En dit is, opnieuw, waarom Rome en de Lage landen belangrijk is. Robert Nouwen bedient de sleuteldoelgroep.

Daarmee maakt hij een andere keuze dan we in Romeins Nederland gewend zijn. Zoals gezegd is de voorlichting te vaak beperkt tot de eerste lijn. De Romeinse limes bijvoorbeeld presenteert zich met een stortvloed aan steeds dezelfde informatie, met als gevolg dat betrouwbare informatie (die er wel is) inmiddels onzichtbaar ligt onder de oppervlakkigheden. Ooit heette dat junk news, tegenwoordig flooding the zone.

Als dit nieuwe wegen in het erfgoedmanagement zijn, lopen we daarover steeds verder het moeras in. Niemand kan momenteel ontdekken welk excess empirical content rechtvaardigt waarom ten gunste van de Romeinse limes de Germanen uit ons geschiedbeeld zijn verwijderd. Ik ben niet de eerste of enige die zich afvraagt of het wel een vooroordeel is dat oudheidkundigen meedraaien met iedere culturele en politieke wind. Daarom is het weldadig een boek over de Romeinse tijd te lezen dat de wetenschappelijke autonomie herneemt. Opnieuw een reden om Rome en de Lage Landen te prijzen.

De toekomst

Is het boek perfect? Nouwen zal als eerste erkennen dat hij keuzes heeft moeten maken. En anderen maken andere keuzes. Ikzelf zou bijvoorbeeld meer hebben gedaan met taalkunde en Romeins Recht. Nouwen zal ook als eerste erkennen dat Rome en de Lage Landen zal verouderen. De vraag naar een volgende synthese zal met elke ontdekking toenemen.

Ik stel me voor dat die volgende synthese geen boek is maar een voor alle doelgroepen toegankelijke website, waarop alleen iets verschijnt dat door een archeoloog, een historicus en een classicus is gefiatteerd. En die website is, net als Neerlandistiek.nl, niet afgesloten met een betaalmuur. Immers, zolang desinformatie gratis is en we voor goede informatie moeten betalen, geldt dat bad information drives out good. Onze digitale synthese mag geen betaalmuurmedeplichtige zijn. Ik denk verder dat de musea geoutilleerd zijn om dit project te beginnen.

Envoi

Terug naar het heden. Nouwen heeft België en Nederland de synthese geschonken die we nodig hadden. We kunnen mensen met een hoge informatiebehoefte, als onderzoekers iets moois ontdekken, op een verantwoorde wijze een verantwoorde context bieden. Classici kunnen zien wat archeologen hebben bereikt, archeologen kunnen profiteren van actuele inzichten van classici en oudhistorici.

Hoe gaan we vanaf hier verder? Ik vertrouw op een symposium over Rome en de Lage Landen. Een symposium over publieksgeschiedenis, over samenwerking tussen de oudheidkundige bloedgroepen, over verdieping. En ik meen dat bij zo’n symposium een dozijn hoogleraren uit binnen- en buitenland aanwezig behoort te zijn, inclusief de bekendste historicus van Nederland.

#badInformationDrivesOutGood #boek #Cartagena #GalliaBelgica #GermaniaInferior #NijmeegseAquaductaffaire #PublicUnderstandingOfScience #RobertNouwen #sleuteldoelgroep #synthese #website

Robert Nouwen, Rome & de Lage Landen (2)

De bovenloop van het Nijmeegse aquaduct op het terrein van Museumpark Orientalis

[Tweede deel van de tekst van mijn toespraakje bij de presentatie van Rome en de Lage Landen van Robert Nouwen, afgelopen zaterdag in het Rijksmuseum van Oudheden in Leiden. Het eerste deel was hier.]

Wetenschapscommunicatie

Zoals u misschien weet staat het kantoor van dit museum één straat verder, in het huizenblok waar ooit Simon Stevin woonde. Een museumkantoor kan niet op een nobeler plek staan, want Stevin was een van de eersten die nadacht over de wijze waarop je wetenschappelijke inzichten het beste kon delen. Nouwen is een waardige opvolger van Stevin.

In de ideale situatie leggen wetenschappers hun werk zelf uit. Wim van Es kon dat, maar niet iedereen is zo getalenteerd. Bovendien is wetenschapscommunicatie inmiddels een specialisme op zich, met als doel zoveel mogelijk zo accuraat mogelijke inzichten zo snel mogelijk zo goed mogelijk bij zoveel mogelijk zo relevant mogelijke mensen te laten aankomen. Idealiter:

Idealiter. Idealiter nemen de mensen de conclusies over en leven ze nog lang en gelukkig.

Maar dat is natuurlijk een sprookje. De Nijmeegse aquaductaffaire toonde een publiek dat de hakken in het zand zette tegen de wetenschap, en was mogelijk doordat archeologen hadden nagelaten hun bevindingen voldoende toe te lichten. De affaire escaleerde naar de Rekenkamer en het Landelijk Orgaan Wetenschappelijke Integriteit, en beschadigde zowel de wetenschap als de betrokkenen. Het was an accident waiting to happen, omdat de methode waarop de claim was gebaseerd, niet op voorhand was uitgelegd.

Een eerste conclusie: het publiek moet vooraf, vóór er problemen zijn, toegang hebben tot uitleg van de methode. Deze nadruk op transparantie valt onder wat bekendstaat als “Public Understanding of Science”: het idee dat wetenschapsscepsis ontstaat door onvoldoende kennis van het wetenschappelijk bedrijf. Zorg dus voor uitleg van de methoden, de theorievorming, de zwakke punten. Methodische uitleg neemt echter niet alle problemen weg.

Dwarsliggers

De eerste complicatie is de dwarsligger. Pakweg 1% van het publiek. Bij wijze van voorbeeld noem ik een andere kwestie, enkele jaren geleden, buiten de Romeinse Lage Landen maar wel relevant: afrocentrisme. Destijds bekritiseerden zwarte studenten aan de Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam hun docenten omdat die zwart erfgoed negeerden. De medewerkers begonnen pas toen, toen de kritiek er al was, uit te leggen hoe oudheidkundigen tot conclusies komen, waarna de sceptici ook de methodes betwijfelden. Alle goede didactische bedoelingen hadden dus vooral als gevolg dat er méér schade was voor de wetenschap en de betrokkenen. Dit is een schoolvoorbeeld van het zogeheten backfire-effect.

Opnieuw: als mensen uitleg van de methode hadden gevonden, gewoon online, met een muisklik, was de schade beperkter geweest. Helemaal vermijdbaar was ze echter niet. De echte dwarsligger wil zich niet laten overtuigen en zoekt naar mogelijkheden om te zuigen. Niet lang na de affaire aan de Vrije Universiteit kreeg dit museum de volle laag.

Publieksvragen

De tweede complicatie is dat ik hierboven wat makkelijk uitging van een passief publiek. Dat stelt echter vragen. Zoals het bij presentaties als deze gaat, zal een spreker die pijltjes heeft gebruikt, betogen dat die ook de andere kant op kunnen wijzen. Hier is het plaatje waarop u al zat te wachten.

En u weet ook al dat in een derde plaatje de pijltjes allebei de kanten op staan.

Een tweede conclusie: voorlichting is communicatie. De wetenschap kan iets “zenden” waarvan mensen nog niet weten hoe interessant het is, en de wetenschap moet vragen van het publiek beantwoorden.noot Ik breng de Nationale Wetenschapsagenda in herinnering. Eén classica nam de moeite een vraag te beantwoorden. De wetenschappers lieten het publiek verder in de kou staan. Alleen: “het” publiek bestaat niet. Er zijn diverse groepen. En Rome en de Lage Landen is zo belangrijk omdat Robert Nouwen op dit punt een ongebruikelijke maar verstandige keuze maakt.

[Wordt vervolgd]

#backfireEffect #boek #GalliaBelgica #GermaniaInferior #NijmeegseAquaductaffaire #PublicUnderstandingOfScience #RobertNouwen #synthese

The Imperative of Science Communication in the Modern Era

In today’s rapidly evolving landscape, science communication—often referred to as “SciComm”—is more critical than ever. Recent history underscores the urgency of effectively communicating scientific knowledge, especially in the face of challenges such as aggressive federal funding cuts to science under the Trump administration, persistent attacks on researchers, and a challenging atmosphere for early-career scientists. As researchers encounter heightened scrutiny and diminished support, many have sought opportunities abroad, resulting in a brain drain that threatens America’s status as a global leader in scientific innovation and literacy.

Understanding this broader context emphasizes why science communication isn’t merely beneficial—it’s essential. SciComm acts as a crucial bridge linking laboratory and field research with public policy, education, and everyday decision-making. Without effective communication, groundbreaking discoveries remain inaccessible and misunderstood, policies become misinformed, and society collectively suffers from stagnation in progress.

The Critical Roles of Science Communication

Science communication serves multiple fundamental functions within society:

1. Informing Policy Making

Policy decisions profoundly shape our society, from climate change initiatives to public health policies. Effective SciComm ensures decision-makers have accurate, accessible, and timely scientific information. Conversely, misinformation can lead to poor policy outcomes, such as inadequate responses to climate crises or ineffective health initiatives.

2. Ensuring Public Health and Safety

The COVID-19 pandemic dramatically highlighted the necessity of clear, effective science communication. Public health messages must distill complex epidemiological concepts into actionable guidelines. Miscommunication and misinformation resulted in vaccine hesitancy, skepticism about public health measures, and preventable illnesses and fatalities.

3. Promoting Democratic Engagement

Informed citizens make better decisions. By understanding science, the public can meaningfully participate in democratic processes, hold leaders accountable, and advocate effectively for science-based policies.

4. Fostering Innovation and Economic Growth

Scientific advancements fuel economic growth. Clear communication enables society to recognize the value of investing in research and development, fostering a culture of innovation essential for economic prosperity.

Navigating Contemporary Challenges

The policies under the Trump administration resulted in significant setbacks for science. Budget cuts, censorship of scientific data, and political undermining severely damaged America’s scientific ecosystem. Early-career scientists were particularly vulnerable, caught between their passion for discovery and an uncertain professional future.

Consequently, many relocated to countries more supportive of scientific endeavors. Nations like Canada, Germany, and China actively attracted American-trained talent, recognizing that investing in science and researchers directly translates to economic and intellectual strength.

Sustaining America’s Leadership in Scientific Literacy

Historically, the U.S. has positioned itself as a leader in science, yet this status is fragile without sustained effort, funding, and societal support. Maintaining leadership requires:

  • Consistent and adequate funding for scientific research and education.
  • Protection and support for early-career researchers.
  • Open, transparent communication about the value and outcomes of scientific research.

Improving the Effectiveness of Science Communication

To effectively communicate science, especially in polarized environments, SciComm practitioners must:

  • Use Clear, Accessible Language: Complexity must never overshadow clarity. Simplifying jargon helps broader audiences grasp essential concepts.
  • Harness Storytelling Techniques: Humans naturally resonate with stories. Framing science through compelling narratives can engage audiences emotionally and intellectually.
  • Leverage Digital Media: Platforms like YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok democratize information access. Short, engaging content or visually appealing graphics greatly enhance reach and retention.
  • Encourage Dialogue: Science communication should foster questions, debate, and discussion rather than dictating knowledge from a position of presumed authority.
  • Build Trust: Transparency, consistency, and honesty form the foundation of effective communication, creating trust between scientists and the public.
  • Communicating Human Evolution with Sensitivity to Religious Beliefs

    Human evolution remains a sensitive topic in many communities where religious beliefs conflict with evolutionary science. Effective SciComm in paleoanthropology demands nuanced approaches:

    • Respectful Engagement: Recognize the personal and cultural significance of religious beliefs without disparagement. Dialogue rather than debate creates respectful learning environments.
    • Highlight Shared Values: Emphasizing universal human values such as curiosity, discovery, and knowledge bridges ideological divides.
    • Identify Common Ground: Evolutionary science and religious beliefs often intersect positively on ethical considerations, community building, and appreciation of life’s complexity.
    • Amplify Diverse Voices: Engaging communicators from varied cultural and religious backgrounds offers relatable perspectives, breaking down misconceptions.

    Building Social Cohesion Through Science

    Science communication doesn’t merely educate; it unites. By promoting literacy and appreciation of the natural world, SciComm fosters social cohesion rooted in evidence-based thinking. Encouraging scientific literacy at every societal level—schools, community programs, and media—enhances collective decision-making, reduces polarization, and promotes harmony.

    Educational initiatives should emphasize critical thinking and scientific reasoning, enabling individuals to assess information critically and challenge misinformation. Literacy programs must directly address scientific misinformation, equipping communities with practical tools to identify and counter false claims.

    Looking Ahead: Education, Literacy, and Understanding

    A robust commitment to education and literacy is the cornerstone of effective science communication. Educational systems must incorporate rigorous, inclusive, and up-to-date science curricula. Prioritizing STEM education from early childhood through adulthood significantly shapes societal perspectives, fostering respect for evidence-based knowledge.

    Moreover, understanding the natural world must extend beyond classrooms. Community engagement via citizen science projects, public lectures, interactive museum exhibits, and collaborative research opportunities profoundly enhances societal appreciation and understanding of science.

    Conclusion

    As contemporary challenges mount—political, social, environmental—effective science communication remains essential for navigating complexities. SciComm empowers informed policy-making, strengthens public health initiatives, invigorates democratic processes, stimulates economic growth, and fosters societal unity. Amid current setbacks and potential declines in scientific leadership, reinforcing our commitment to clear, engaging, and inclusive science communication is not merely advantageous—it’s imperative.

    Our collective future depends on an informed, engaged society. By championing education, promoting scientific literacy, and deepening our understanding of the natural world, we build a resilient framework capable of confronting modern challenges. The path forward demands clarity, respect, inclusivity, and active engagement—hallmarks of impactful science communication. With concerted effort and dedication, science will continue to serve as a guiding force for societal advancement, resilience, and unity.

    #AmericanScienceCrisis #BrainDrain #CommunicatingScience #DemocraticEngagement #EarlyCareerScientists #EducationAndLiteracy #EvidenceBasedPolicy #HumanEvolution #InclusiveScience #PublicScienceEducation #PublicUnderstandingOfScience #SciComm #ScienceAdvocacy #ScienceAndDemocracy #ScienceAndReligion #ScienceAndSociety #ScienceCommunication #ScienceFunding #ScienceInTheUS #ScienceLiteracy #ScienceOutreach #SciencePolicy #ScienceStorytelling #ScientificInnovation #ScientificIntegrity #ScientificMisinformation #STEMEducation #TrustInScience #WhyScienceMatters

    Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing

    Scott Douglas Jacobsen
    In-Sight Publishing, Fort Langley, British Columbia, Canada

    Correspondence: Scott Douglas Jacobsen (Email: [email protected])

    Received: October 27, 2024
    Accepted: N/A
    Published: January 15, 2025 

    Abstract

    This interview explores the intersection of science and humanism through the insights of Dr. Lawrence Krauss, an esteemed theoretical physicist and public intellectual. Dr. Krauss discusses the fundamental principles of humanism, including the acceptance of reality, the use of reason and intelligence to improve society, and the importance of skepticism and scientific integrity. The conversation delves into challenges in science communication, the misconceptions surrounding the concept of “nothing,” and the dynamics of engaging with differing ideologies. Additionally, Dr. Krauss shares his experiences in public debates, his views on effective science communicators, and the role of humanism in promoting equality and resisting oppressive structures. This interview provides a comprehensive understanding of Dr. Krauss’s vision for a scientifically informed and humanistic society.

    Keywords: Debates, Equality, Humanism, Lawrence Krauss, Nothing, Philosophy of Science, Public Understanding of Science, Science Communication, Scientific Integrity, Skepticism, Oppression

    Introduction

    Dr. Lawrence Krauss, a prominent theoretical physicist and bestselling author, is renowned for his ability to bridge complex scientific concepts with public discourse. In this interview conducted by Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Dr. Krauss delves into the essence of humanism, emphasizing its reliance on reason, intelligence, and the acceptance of reality to foster societal improvement. The discussion addresses the challenges inherent in communicating intricate scientific ideas to a broader audience, highlighting the importance of integrity and skepticism in both scientific endeavors and humanistic practices. Dr. Krauss also reflects on his experiences in public debates, offering critiques on effective science communication and the interplay between science and philosophy. Furthermore, he elucidates the nuanced understanding of “nothing” within the context of physics and cosmology, countering common misconceptions. This interview sheds light on Dr. Krauss’s commitment to promoting a scientifically literate and equitable society through his work with The Origins Project and his role as a public intellectual.

    Main Text (Interview)

    Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

    Interviewee: Dr. Lawrence Krauss

    Section 1: Defining Humanism

    Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Lawrence Krauss, probably one of the most prominent humanists. Thank you for taking the time today and indulging in a pipsqueak like me, as an older term for endearment. Today’s focus will be humanism and nothing. I’m an independent journalist. So, I can choose the topic and don’t necessarily have to engage in “gotcha” journalism or focus on one thing and another. I want to focus on a couple topics of interest and expertise for someone for a limited allotted time. So, when we’re focusing on humanism and nothing in this interview, it makes you an expert in something and nothing. You have a broad palette!

    Dr. Lawrence Krauss: The two are not that different.

    Section 2: Characteristics of Humanist Communities

    Jacobsen: When you see humanism, at least the theory as opposed to the practice, what is its characteristic for you as you travel the world and see different humanist communities?

    Krauss: Well, I guess, first of all, I don’t tend to label people in terms of “-isms.” I don’t think in terms of “-isms.” I don’t say, “This is a humanist community,” or “These people are humanists.” People are individuals, and I don’t label myself except, perhaps, as a scientist.

    But humanism is a willingness to accept the world for what it is and realize that we can try to make the world a better place with intelligence and reason. Those are the two basic features: accept reality and take the evidence of reality as your guide, and use your intelligence, reason, and observations to try to make the world a better place for both people and, in my case, nature as well.

    Section 3: Filtering Facts Through Ideologies

    Jacobsen: Do you think a common mistake for most people is filtering the world’s facts through a particular ideology, religious or otherwise?

    Krauss: We all do it. We’re all hardwired to do it, so we have to fight against it. We learned a neat tool about 500 years ago—certainly at least 400—that helps overcome this natural human tendency. It’s called science. We learned that scientists are flawed, but the scientific process is self-correcting.

    This process involves taking data, making predictions, checking them against the data, and making your ideas open to rigorous scrutiny and attack from colleagues and others. This way, you filter out what’s wrong. You check again, do more experiments, and repeat the process. It works and helps overcome the natural human tendency to want to believe things—like Fox Mulder in The X-Files.

    Section 4: Challenges in Scientific Training

    Jacobsen: What part of scientific training do you think was the most difficult when training junior scientists?

    Krauss: The hardest part is learning to work equally hard to prove your ideas wrong as you do to prove them right. The easiest person to fool is yourself. It’s easy to be skeptical of other people’s data but harder to be skeptical of your ideas. The most difficult challenge is being willing to look for what’s wrong with your arguments.

    Section 5: Effective Science Communicators

    Jacobsen: Who do you think is the best science communicator?

    Krauss: “The best science communicator,” one of my favourite science communicators is Jacob Bronowski. He made a TV series called The Ascent of Man and wrote several great books. The Ascent of Man is one of the best examples of science communication, but it’s not just about science. It’s one of the best science and humanist art TV series ever. He was brilliant, and his books are wonderful. So he’s high on my list, though he could be more well-known today. He was more recognized back when his show aired—13 parts, if I remember correctly.

    But anyway, he was a great science communicator—a scientist of sorts. Richard Feynman was another excellent science communicator who got people excited and thinking. However, Carl Sagan has done an outstanding job of inspiring people. Albert Einstein also wrote clear books about relativity.
    And, of course, Charles Darwin is at the top of the list.

    Section 6: Reflections on Darwin and Communication

    Jacobsen: I’m sure the late Daniel Dennett would have agreed on that point.

    Krauss: Well, maybe he would have, I don’t know. Richard Dawkins is always surprised when I say that, as a physicist, Darwin is my top choice. Not because of On the Origin of Species but because I was captivated by his earlier work, The Voyage of the Beagle. It’s a gripping book—it reads like a Hollywood movie. He’s almost always getting killed, making you think about everything. It’s remarkable. It’s a great read. I thought it would be tedious and difficult, but it’s not.

    Section 7: Communicating Big Ideas to the Public

    Krauss: Big ideas—general relativity, quantum mechanics, and so on—have at least been communicated to the public. These are foundational theories that the general public may not fully understand since we don’t all have the math or training, but the concepts have been explained clearly. For example, if you drop a rock and a feather, most people think the rock falls faster because it’s heavier. That misconception is independent of college education, as I’ve discovered.

    At some level, though, certain ideas filter down. The fact that the universe had a beginning, even if people don’t believe it was only 6,000 years ago, filters through. The idea of the Big Bang is a profound result. General relativity involves the curvature of space and the existence of black holes—those ideas filter in.

    That’s why I write books: to give people perspective. I don’t expect them to understand the details. The biggest surprise for me when I first wrote a book, which was originally a disappointment, was that many readers didn’t grasp the full depth. But I got over it.

    Section 8: Reader Feedback and Misunderstandings

    Krauss: When people write to me, saying, “I loved your book” and “I loved this part, blah blah blah,” it’s often completely different from what I had written. I need clarification on what I wrote. At first, I thought, “How disappointing.” But I had inspired them to think about it, and maybe that’s what matters.

    Section 9: Communicating Humanist Ideas and Misunderstandings

    Jacobsen: Do you find a similar experience when communicating humanist ideas or humanism in general—particularly when advancing science education for the public? Do you encounter similar misunderstandings of what you’re writing about humanism or values that would be considered humanist?

    Krauss: Absolutely. First, what happens online is that people often only read the title or what someone else says about the title. So, of course, there are misunderstandings because most people need to be tuned to read what I say. They read what someone thinks I said or just the title and that’s enough for them.

    Online, the level of discourse is sometimes below kindergarten level—they read almost nothing. They glance at the title, feel they’ve read enough, and then comment, usually writing something antagonistic. Sometimes, they love it without even reading it.

    For example, when my Substack article or video is released, I’ll get “I love it” responses within 15 seconds of it going live, which tells me they probably didn’t read or watch it. It’s nice that they love it, but engaging with the content would be good.

    Section 10: Misconceptions About “Nothing”

    Jacobsen: That leads to the second topic—with almost nothing as the transition. You’ve explained this hundreds of times, I’m sure. When people think of “nothing,” they imagine an endless black void. What’s wrong with that image, and what’s the appropriate way to understand it?

    Krauss: As I said in my book, A Universe from Nothing, there are many versions of “nothing.” For example, the Bible’s idea of “nothing” is often depicted as an endless void, which is one version of “nothing.” But there are many more. The easiest “nothing” to talk about is space—because space isn’t empty. It’s filled with virtual particles popping in and out of existence, and some eventually become real particles. So, that “nothing” is unstable; if you wait long enough, something will happen.

    Then, you have another level of “nothing,” no space or time. That’s the version I was mostly talking about in my book. You take all the space and time we live in and imagine none existed. Then, suddenly, it did. That’s possible, even though some people struggle with the concept, asking, “What was out there before?” or “Was there anything else?” These are generally meaningless questions because everything in our universe—space and time—did not exist before, and then it did. Whether there was some preexisting structure or something else is irrelevant.

    Our universe didn’t exist, and then it did. It’s like a magic trick. I’ve been practicing magic tricks while talking to you.

    Section 11: Theological Pushback on “Nothing”

    Jacobsen: So, Penn Jillette would be proud.

    Krauss: Well, Penn is proud! He’s happy that I value magic.

    Jacobsen: I should send him an email. I interviewed the late James Randi before he passed away, and I’m glad I had the chance to do that.

    Krauss: One of my favourite pictures is of Penn, me, and Randi. I love it because I’m happy to be with two men I admire, and we all fit in the same frame. It was remarkable, especially because Randi was much shorter than me!

    Section 12: Defining “Something from Nothing”

    Jacobsen: So, what would be another definition of something from nothing?

    Krauss: A lot of what you see in the world is illusion, too. The difference is, in science, we try to distinguish between illusion and reality.

    Section 13: Theological Pushback and Meaning of “Why”

    Jacobsen: When you discuss the concept of “nothing,” more precisely defined as it relates to how the real world operates, what kind of pushback do you typically get from theologians or people looking for more than just that explanation?

    Krauss: What do I get from theologians? Nothing much. When you say they’re looking for more of an answer, do you mean they want some meaning behind why it’s happening?

    Jacobsen: Correct. You explain, but they often ask, “Why.” And when you respond that “why” has no inherent meaning, that can be frustrating for them, right?

    Krauss: They’re looking for an answer that implies some underlying purpose or immateriality.

    Section 14: The Meaning of “Why” and the Laws of Physics

    Jacobsen: But as you’ve pointed out, when they ask “why,” they often mean “how.” They expect answers about purpose when the question is about reality’s mechanisms. And then they ask, “Where did the laws of physics come from?” or similar questions, right?

    Krauss: Yes, that’s a common follow-up. The simplest and most honest answer is, “I don’t know.” And that’s the point of my last book. The three most important words in science—and in life, really—are “I don’t know.”

    That means there’s more to learn. But there are many possible answers, and they would prefer something else would need more. The simplest answer is that the laws of physics came into existence simultaneously with the universe. That’s an answer only some people find satisfying, but it’s possible. Another possibility is that some laws have preexisted the universe.

    When you say “laws,” it implies that there’s maybe only one underlying set of rules by which physical existence can manifest. At least one thing is certain: many of the laws in our universe are emergent, effective laws—they are accidents of our universe. The properties of elementary particles and the four forces of nature are likely accidental consequences of what happened after the Big Bang. But fundamental concepts, like general relativity and quantum mechanics, may be intrinsic properties of nature. Why does nature have those properties? Who knows?

    And maybe—again—it’s unclear whether that question even has meaning. So, it’s almost a meaningless question to ask if the laws were “eternal.” Because if time itself came into existence with the universe, then what does “eternal” even mean?

    Section 15: The Concept of “Eternal” and Time

    Krauss: “Eternal” only has meaning if time exists. If time came into existence with the universe, then “eternal” becomes an ill-defined concept. There could be a global time variable in some space outside our universe or in some other context from which our universe emerged. In that case, there could be an “eternal” time variable. But it needs to be better defined, especially when talking about the origin of our universe, where we know the laws of physics break down at the point where space and time began.

    Section 16: Occam’s Razor and Extra Dimensions

    Jacobsen: That could also be reduced to Occam’s Razor—parsimony. If people are positing some invariant time outside of our regular universe, does that create a rickety structure of assumptions?

    Krauss: Again, it depends on what you mean by “outside of our universe.” Our universe could be infinite. But if our universe emerged spontaneously as a closed universe, there would be no “outside” as it expanded. It just came into existence. There may be other spaces, but there’s no reason to assume our universe was embedded in those spaces.

    Now, there are extra dimensions that we’re embedded in some larger multidimensional space. Despite being a well-motivated idea, that’s another possibility, though it currently needs more evidence.

    Section 17: String Theory’s Definition of “Nothing”

    Jacobsen: Do string theorists define “nothing” differently than what you’ve described?

    Krauss: Do string theorists define “nothing” differently? No. String theorists are physicists, so we all define “nothing” similarly. It still comes down to quantum mechanics and general relativity because that’s what string theory is based on. String theory expands upon these ideas, but the fundamental definition of “nothing” remains the same.

    And what I can say that maybe generalizes string theory, especially beyond four dimensions of space and time, is that string theory suggests there’s a smallest possible distance you can get to—it doesn’t allow you to reach zero size. In other words, you can achieve a fundamental smallest scale, a minimum length, known as the Planck length.

    String theory also implies there’s the smallest time increment because space and time are intertwined. The best way to put it is that there’s a minimum space-time interval. Things popping in and out of existence still happen. Still, string theory allows for a much larger framework for these phenomena. Not only does it allow, but it requires more than four dimensions—beyond the three spatial dimensions and one-time dimensions we’re familiar with—for the theory to be mathematically consistent.

    If string theory describes our universe, there are likely more than four space-time dimensions. The theory is well-defined. However, we’re still learning about the mathematical structures within it. Strings used to be considered the fundamental building blocks. Still, we know that strings are only some fundamental constructs in string theory. We’ve moved to more complex entities like membranes (branes) and manifolds.

    It’s a complicated mathematical framework—I was about to say “mess,” but I don’t know if that’s fair. It’s a work in progress.

    Section 18: Sean Carroll and Poetic Naturalism

    Jacobsen: Sean Carroll is another prominent humanist and popularizer of science.

    Krauss: I think of him more as a philosopher, however.

    Jacobsen: He’s an effective presenter.

    Krauss: He is. Sometimes, yes. He could be overly poetic for my taste, but he’s an effective communicator.

    Jacobsen: He uses this concept of “poetic naturalism” to encapsulate his views.

    Krauss: Yes, that’s where I don’t quite align with him. He’s effective but sometimes makes things sound grand, maybe to appear smarter. He’s written entire books on many-worlds interpretation, which feels like a waste of pages. The key issue isn’t what interpretation of quantum mechanics we use—whether it’s many-worlds or something else. The important thing is not how we interpret quantum mechanics but how we interpret classical mechanics.

    The world is inherently quantum mechanical. So, trying to frame it in terms of some “effective” classical theory and then coming up with something that sounds bizarre doesn’t add much. Of course, quantum mechanics is weird, but the point is that the world is quantum mechanical, and we should embrace that.

    So, any classical interpretation of quantum mechanics seems weird. But again, Sean Carroll is more of a philosopher because philosophers love creating and quoting these definitions. I don’t think in terms of definitions. What is “poetic naturalism”? I’m sorry, I’m going on a rant here. But anytime you start creating these fancy terms, it feels like something philosophers love to do, and often, it just obfuscates, as far as I can see. What’s the formal definition of poetic naturalism?

    Section 19: Poetic Naturalism Defined

    Jacobsen: I don’t know the formal definition, but I understand it’s about using ordinary language to describe the world while acknowledging that we operate under physical laws and principles.

    Krauss: Maybe. But if that’s what it is, why not just say that? It is an overly grandiose way of describing something very straightforward. Anyway, I’m digressing.

    Section 20: Experiences in Public Debates

    Jacobsen: You’ve participated in a few debates—what was your favourite moment from those debates?

    Krauss: I generally don’t enjoy debates. They’re more rhetorical exercises than explanation, logic, and critical thinking discussions. I don’t think about favourites, but I recall one of the most effective moments.
    Unfortunately, I debated William Lane Craig several times. I assumed he was well-meaning the first time, but I soon realized that was my mistake. Afterward, I tried to avoid him, though I debated him again despite attempting to convince the organizers in Australia not to invite him. We did three debates for a Christian group—very nice people—with large audiences, mostly Christians. It was fun to expose the superficiality of his thinking on certain topics.

    There were two notable things: first, his arguments were low-hanging fruit, and second, he distorts and lies, which is why I found it so frustrating—one moment that resonated with the audience occurred during the Q&A section of one of these debates. Unfortunately, most of these debates were moderated by philosophers who often seemed more interested in hearing themselves talk than in asking us meaningful questions. But one asked, “What would it take to change your mind?”—specifically about belief in God.

    Section 21: Response to William Lane Craig’s Question

    Jacobsen: What did you say?

    Krauss: I said that if I looked up at the night sky and the stars realigned to spell out “I’m here” in Aramaic, Hebrew, English, or even Russian, I’d be impressed. That would be a remarkable event. It would make me reconsider things. William, on the other hand, gave a remarkably facile answer. This surprised me, considering he has debated this topic his whole life.

    William Lane Craig said that if his daughter died, he’d question the existence of God. Wow, that’s a pretty flimsy belief system.

    Then there was another moment, similar in tone. I had heard him debate before, and I think this came from one of those debates. It was about the Amalekites. You know, the biblical story where the Israelites are commanded to kill all the Amalekite men, women, and children—everyone.

    Section 22: Debating Biblical Narratives

    Jacobsen: Yes, I’m familiar with it.

    Krauss: So, I asked him, “What about the children? Why did they have to be killed? They hadn’t done anything wrong.”

    His response was, again, remarkable. First, he said, “The children haven’t done anything wrong, so they’ll go to heaven.” Great—because that’s what parents want to hear, right? Then he said something even more shocking: “I don’t feel sorry for the children. I feel sorry for the Hebrew soldiers who had to kill them under God’s orders because they would have been traumatized.”

    That alienated most of the audience. It was a moment that stuck with me.

    Section 23: Connection to Humanism and Human Rights

    Jacobsen: That’s astounding.

    Krauss: Yes, it was.

    Jacobsen: This ties into humanism. A deep sense of fairness, equality, and human rights is important to many humanists, though not all. Noam Chomsky, for example, has a long history of political activism and has been described as a humanist and self-describes as an atheist.

    I remember during one debate, you refused to take part because they were planning gender segregation. Could you tell me more about that moment and your decision?

    Section 24: Refusing to Debate on Principle

    Krauss: Yes, I did refuse. Noam Chomsky—by the way, I don’t think he necessarily identifies as an atheist, even though he’s often described that way. He doesn’t care about that label. He’s often told me that he doesn’t care what people believe, only what they do. It’s about actions, not beliefs, for him. And that’s true for me as well.

    Section 25: Maintaining Principles Amidst Pressure

    Jacobsen: That makes sense. So, how do you maintain that courage in the face of pressure, especially when you’re in a situation where standing up for equality could result in pushback from the crowd? Chomsky has a long history of activism and has faced backlash. I imagine you’ve encountered similar resistance.

    Krauss: It isn’t easy sometimes. In that particular case, when I refused to debate in a segregated environment, I was standing by a principle I believe in deeply, secularism in a secular forum. It’s not about making grand gestures; it’s about not compromising on fundamental values. I knew there would be consequences, but you can’t let that deter you.
    The key is to remind yourself of the bigger picture. When you’re in front of a crowd, it’s easy to get caught up in their reactions, but you must stay focused on what’s right rather than on what’s popular. Over time, you develop the resilience to withstand that kind of pushback. It helps to remember that history often judges those who stand for equality and justice more favourably in the long run than those who try to appease the status quo.

    Section 26: Facing Hostility and Real Courage

    Jacobsen: At that moment, you were facing pushback from the crowd. Was that a scary situation for you?

    Krauss: There have been scarier moments, but it wasn’t about courage in the traditional sense. You either act in a way you believe is right or don’t. When you put yourself in that position, you must back up your words with action. Deciding not to debate and walking out if they didn’t desegregate the audience wasn’t the most courageous thing I’ve ever done. For me, it was a no-brainer.

    I did it partly because I felt it was disingenuous—they had told me the event wouldn’t be segregated, and then it was. But more importantly, two young men sitting in the women’s section were about to be dragged out, and they asked for my help. They were scared, so I stepped in. That wasn’t the scary part, however.

    The really scary part was afterward, looking into the eyes of the women in burkas. There was so much hate in their eyes because of the desegregation. You don’t know what people might be carrying under their burkas, and the hostility was palpable. During the question period, one of these women asked, “How dare you? What right do you have to do that?”

    I tried to be gentle in my response, explaining that if we were in a mosque, she’d have every right to feel that way. But we were in a university lecture hall, in a secular society. If she went to a football game, she couldn’t say, “Stop the game until the women sit on one side and the men on the other.” The event was videotaped and recorded; she didn’t have to come if she didn’t want to sit next to a man. But in a secular society, she couldn’t expect her religious needs to dictate public events.

    People sometimes call me or Richard Dawkins brave, but let me tell you what real bravery is. I recently came back from an event in Oslo with ex-Muslims from around the world. These are people who face death threats for renouncing their faith. They have to flee their countries, and their parents say they wish they had killed them when they were babies. These people live with that pain, and they still call their parents, who tell them they wish they had been killed. That’s real bravery.

    That’s a different level of courage than simply getting up and walking out of a debate.

    Section 27: Closing the Debate Discussion

    Krauss: That’s a different level of courage than simply getting up and walking out of a debate.

    Jacobsen: Lawrence, thank you for the opportunity and your time today, sharing insights on something and nothing.

    Krauss: I wonder if I gave you many insights, but I owe you more time. Hopefully, there’s something useful in all of that.

    Section 28: Final Remarks

    Jacobsen: Excellent. Dr. Krauss, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate it.

    Krauss: Thank you for giving me this opportunity. If you need anything, please don’t hesitate to contact me or my team. It’s been a pleasure to join you today. Thank you for the invitation.

    Jacobsen: Take care. Nice to meet you.

    Krauss: Bye-bye.

    Jacobsen: Bye-bye.

    Discussion

    This interview with Dr. Lawrence Krauss provides a profound exploration of the principles of humanism as they intersect with scientific inquiry and public discourse. Dr. Krauss emphasizes that humanism is fundamentally about accepting the world as it is and striving to improve it through reason and intelligence. He highlights the inherent challenges in science communication, particularly the tendency for audiences to engage superficially with complex ideas, often leading to misunderstandings or misinterpretations. Dr. Krauss’s critique of online discourse underscores the importance of depth and engagement in fostering a scientifically literate society.

    A significant portion of the discussion centers around the concept of “nothing” in physics and cosmology. Dr. Krauss elucidates the different interpretations of “nothing,” challenging common misconceptions and addressing theological pushback. His explanations demystify complex scientific concepts, making them more accessible to the public while maintaining their intricate nuances. This approach reinforces the role of scientists as educators and communicators who bridge the gap between specialized knowledge and public understanding.

    Dr. Krauss also shares his experiences in public debates, particularly his interactions with William Lane Craig. These anecdotes illustrate the challenges of engaging with deeply entrenched ideological positions and the limitations of debates as platforms for genuine understanding. His reflections reveal a commitment to integrity and principled discourse over rhetorical victories, aligning with the core tenets of humanism that prioritize truth and ethical responsibility.

    Overall, the interview underscores Dr. Krauss’s dedication to promoting a society that values scientific integrity, critical thinking, and humanistic principles. His insights advocate for a more informed and equitable public discourse, where complex ideas are communicated effectively, and societal challenges are addressed through reasoned and ethical approaches.

    Methods

    The interviewer, Scott Douglas Jacobsen, conducted an in-depth, semi-structured interview with Dr. Lawrence Krauss. The conversation was arranged with Dr. Krauss’s consent and took place in a setting conducive to a comprehensive dialogue, either online or in person, based on logistical considerations. The interview was recorded to ensure accuracy and fidelity to both participants’ viewpoints. Following the interview, the recording was transcribed verbatim, capturing Dr. Krauss’s responses in their entirety. The transcript was then meticulously edited for clarity and brevity, ensuring that the essence and substance of Dr. Krauss’s insights were preserved without introducing any bias or alteration. This methodological approach facilitated a rich qualitative analysis of Dr. Krauss’s perspectives on humanism, science communication, and the interplay between science and society, allowing for an in-depth understanding of his philosophical and scientific viewpoints.

    Data Availability

    No datasets were generated or analyzed during the current article. All interview content remains the intellectual property of the interviewer and interviewee.

    References

    (No external academic sources were cited for this interview.)

    Journal & Article Details

    • Publisher: In-Sight Publishing
    • Publisher Founding: March 1, 2014
    • Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com
    • Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada
    • Journal: In-Sight: Interviews
    • Journal Founding: August 2, 2012
    • Frequency: Four Times Per Year
    • Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed
    • Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access
    • Fees: None (Free)
    • Volume Numbering: 13
    • Issue Numbering: 2
    • Section: A
    • Theme Type: Idea
    • Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”
    • Theme Part: 33
    • Formal Sub-Theme: None
    • Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2025
    • Issue Publication Date: April 1, 2025
    • Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
    • Word Count: 4,168
    • Image Credits: Photo by NASA Hubble Space Telescope on Unsplash
    • ISSN (International Standard Serial Number): 2369-6885

    Acknowledgements

    The author thanks Dr. Lawrence Krauss for his time and willingness to participate in this interview.

    Author Contributions

    S.D.J. conceived and conducted the interview, transcribed and edited the conversation, and prepared the manuscript.

    Competing Interests

    The author declares no competing interests.

    License & Copyright

    In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
    © Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present.

    Unauthorized use or duplication of material without express permission from Scott Douglas Jacobsen is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links must use full credit to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with direction to the original content.

    Supplementary Information

    Below are various citation formats for Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing.

  • American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition)
    Jacobsen S. Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing. January 2025;13(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/krauss
  • American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition)
    Jacobsen, S. (2025, January 15). Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing. In-Sight Publishing. 13(2).
  • Brazilian National Standards (ABNT)
    JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing. In-Sight: Interviews, Fort Langley, v. 13, n. 2, 2025.
  • Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition)
    Jacobsen, Scott. 2025. “Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing.” In-Sight: Interviews 13 (2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/krauss.
  • Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition)
    Jacobsen, S. “Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing.” In-Sight: Interviews 13, no. 2 (January 2025). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/krauss.
  • Harvard
    Jacobsen, S. (2025) ‘Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing’, In-Sight: Interviews, 13(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/krauss.
  • Harvard (Australian)
    Jacobsen, S 2025, ‘Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing’, In-Sight: Interviews, vol. 13, no. 2, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/krauss.
  • Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition)
    Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing.” In-Sight: Interviews, vol. 13, no. 2, 2025, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/krauss.
  • Vancouver/ICMJE
    Jacobsen S. Conversation with Dr. Lawrence Krauss on Non-“Ism” Humanism and Nothing [Internet]. 2025 Jan;13(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/krauss
  • Note on Formatting

    This layout follows an adapted Nature research-article structure, tailored for an interview format. Instead of Methods, Results, and Discussion, we present Interview transcripts and a concluding Discussion. This design helps maintain scholarly rigor while accommodating narrative content.

     

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