Mastodawn

I am very sorry for you to need to cope with this:

the best option for private chatting TODAY when it comes to #security, usability/user-friendly, #resilience, #digitalindependence and #freedom is #DeltaChat a chat app that uses #SMTP + #IMAP at its backbone, not your favorite "perfect" chat protocol, you don't need new better protocols, you need tools that actually work for the people

#xmpp #matrix #simplex #signal

pixelschubsi 14h ago

@adbenitez It's easy to say that one doesn't need better protocols after those better protocols have become so ubiquitous that you don't even realize how you're using them yourself.

Apple APNS and Google FCM use #XMPP technology to deliver push messages instantly. All the other messengers listed (#Signal, #Element, #DeltaChat) thus use XMPP technology. Everyone uses XMPP, but when it is about marketing, suddenly XMPP is not necessary.

@pixelschubsi @adbenitez new protocols are fine. The point may rather be that contrary to popular nerd belief protocols are only one part of an effort. What distinguishes #deltachat from #xmpp is that one is a cross-platform mass-user focused app with a consistent UX across the platforms and using standards under the hood, while the other is a set of specs with many different implementations and UX approaches on the various platforms, and sometimes tenuous compatibility between them.

bytes4life 4h ago

@delta @pixelschubsi @adbenitez
Can you talk about Deltachat federation? Can anyone run a Deltachat server? What are the requirements? Implies it any kind of administrative procedure?

Delta Chat 3h ago

@bytes4life @pixelschubsi @adbenitez anyone can run a relay, permission-free. see buttom of the public list:
https://chatmail.at/relays

Chatmail: Relays

Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!

𝐽𝑜ℎ𝑎𝑛 4h ago

@delta @pixelschubsi @adbenitez

We don't need #xmpp with "consistent user interfaces" (for the user) – that's from #Psi+ to #Movim. Nothing in common, except what's under the hood.

pixelschubsi 3h ago

@johan @delta @adbenitez XMPP is a protocol, not a messenger. A protocol doesn't have UX, let alone consistent. Saying Psi+ and Movim don't have consistent UX is as helpful as saying DeltaChat and Thunderbird don't have consistent UX.

pixelschubsi 3h ago

@delta @adbenitez Yes DeltaChat is a messenger and XMPP is a protocol.

Why is the advertising towards DeltaChat so obsessed with protocols? Just say "DeltaChat is better than Conversations, because it provides a consistent UX across platforms including iOS." This would render your point much easier to understand for everyone and wouldn't require you to badmouth protocols you're relying on yourself.

Delta Chat 3h ago

@pixelschubsi what do you mean with "delta chat advertising obsessed with protocol"? https://delta.chat/en/ and appstore description barely mention any protocol?

Delta Chat: Delta Chat, decentralized secure messenger

Delta Chat is a decentralized and secure messenger app 💬 Reliable instant messaging with multi-profile and multi-device support ⚡️ Sign up to secure and interoperable chatmail relays 🥳 Interactive ...

pixelschubsi 3h ago

@delta I mean for example the post I was originally replying to. Or your reply to my reply literally having "protocols" as the second word.

My post was about protocols, because it was a reply to one that was about protocols. When you noticed how the advertising based on protocols gets debunked, you quickly shift to something else.

I'm not saying DeltaChat is bad. Just get your marketing sorted and focus on UX rather than standards, protocols or encryption.

Delta Chat 3h ago

@pixelschubsi We responded to the top post as much as to yours, and actually seem to agree that when it comes to mass usage, users don't care about protocols much. Which doesn't mean they are unimportant, neither.

pixelschubsi 3h ago

@adbenitez @delta Sure, so let's stop framing DeltaChat as a "chat app that uses #SMTP + #IMAP at its backbone". It's either just "chat app" or "chat app that uses a bunch of standard protocols (incl. SMTP, IMAP, OpenPGP, MIME, XMPP, HTTP, TLS), proprietary protocols and proprietary extensions to standard protocols". The latter doesn't have the markting ring to it, so maybe just stick with "chat app" and stop talking about protocols at all.

pixelschubsi 3h ago

@adbenitez @delta If you really want to talk about protocols, you can of course also frame it as the "chat app that uses our proprietary chatmail protocol" ;)

@delta @pixelschubsi @adbenitez

I absolutely agree, that "a cross-platform mass-user focused app with a consistent UX across the platforms" is missing desperately in the #Jabber/#XMPP ecosystem.

There are really good clients for Jabber, but none of them fits above description.

AFAIK, both #Snikket/#Borogove by @snikket_im and #Fluux by @ProcessOne try to close that gap.

Still, I prefer the approach of Delta building on #Rust and #Tauri, instead of #Haxe or #Typescript. #YKINMKBYKIOK.

pixelschubsi 2h ago

@delta @adbenitez consistent UX, except when not.

Delta Chat 1h ago

@pixelschubsi @adbenitez fair point -- but the author already agreed to not re-use the deltachat branding ;)

Andrey [0xdc, 0x09];1h ago

@pixelschubsi @delta @adbenitez
It's not listed as an official client implementation

pixelschubsi 1h ago

@darkcat09 @delta @adbenitez Official client implementation of what? Chatmail website also lists a lot of implementations with largely different UX: https://chatmail.at/clients

Chatmail: Clients

Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!

@pixelschubsi buddy, you are completely missing the point

yeah, sure anyone can create 3rd party clients that are not feature-complete, but you can always point people to the official Delta Chat client and that is something that exists stable in all platforms, you don't have such stable cross-platform client in XMPP

besides, even the most simple of the demo client has a backup format that is compatible across all clients and it is possible to move from one client to another, in XMPP this doesn't exist, you can't export a backup from Conversations and import it in Gajim, etc

nor can you recommend the same app for desktop, android and Apple users

more importantly: even the most basic of clients have the same audited encryption etc. than the official client, in xmpp you can often end up even without any encryption at all, and super easy to disable it, it is such a bizarre thing not even worth keep talking about, chao

@darkcat09 @delta

pixelschubsi 19m ago

@adbenitez @darkcat09 @delta Again, you are comparing Delta Chat (software) with XMPP (protocol). That makes no sense.

Of course I can't recommend the XMPP app for desktop, Android and Apple, because there is no XMPP app. None. Zero.

There are just apps that use the XMPP protocol, typically among other protocols. And DeltaChat is technically such an app (via APNS and FCM). Just like DeltaChat is an app that uses IMAP and SMTP protocols.

Andrey [0xdc, 0x09];17m ago

@pixelschubsi @adbenitez @delta
But can you recommend a specific XMPP client with a really good UX both for mobile and desktop which would have consistent UI on both platforms?

pixelschubsi 8m ago

@darkcat09 @adbenitez @delta How about DeltaChat, which, as I just explained, is technically using XMPP (at least on Android and iOS).

I mean, I also firmly believe that "good UX both for mobile and desktop" and "consistent UI on both platforms" are actually mutually exclusive, because to have a good UX, you need to use platform-specific UI patterns, so it can't be consistent.
That's why I consider the DeltaChat UX on desktop pretty bad, but I guess you're a believer so I'm not going to fight.

Andrey [0xdc, 0x09];4m ago

@pixelschubsi @adbenitez @delta
Not trying to offend or ragebait, sorry, but every xmpp client i tried is extremely inconvenient. All maintained android clients are forks of Conversations so there's virtually no choice. Different clients implement different sets of XEPs, there's no such thing as a protocol version. Popular clients partially doesn't support such basic features as editing and deleting messages. UX of MUCs differs very much from what modern messengers offer as chats/groups, MUCs are more like IRC channels probably. File uploads are done over an HTTP API which must be explicitly enabled and configured on an XMPP server (well, why are you using http instead of The Supreme Xmpp?)

Andrey [0xdc, 0x09];1h ago

@pixelschubsi @delta @adbenitez
Oh. I think we should make a "community" section on that page too, and list official clients separately at the top.

Actually i meant this list:
https://support.delta.chat/t/list-of-all-known-client-projects/3059

Which is referenced as "Alternative clients" on this page:
https://delta.chat/en/download

I didn't expect you were reading the chatmail website when we're talking only about Delta

List of all known Client Projects

Official These are the officially endorsed clients. These clients are the most “complete” in terms of functionality. Except for deltatouch all of them are maintained and published by merlinux. deltachat-android Official android client, the first app that ever existed for deltachat. fun fact: UI was originally forked from signal and then adjusted to look more like telegram. (at some point we also tried working with telegram’s ui, but their code was too strange for us to understand) language: ...

Delta Chat

Delta Chat 1h ago

@pixelschubsi @darkcat09 @adbenitez official "Delta Chat" client are found via https://get.delta.chat

pixelschubsi 1m ago

@delta @darkcat09 @adbenitez That page lists DeltaTouch. Tell me again how DeltaTouch and Delta Chat have consistent UX? Here's a screenshot of the settings screen of both.