Accidental Tech Podcast548: Starting to Count Chickens
https://atp.fm/548
Callsheet’s first week, why Apple might (or might not) want to buy Disney, and the state of the podcast-ad market.
Joseph Cursio@atpfm Perhaps this was edited from the podcast, but your conversation about Apple & Disney reminded me of a book John recommended years ago, “Creativity, Inc" by Ed Catmull. Ed recalls that Steve Jobs stayed away from Pixar production meetings. Steve recognized he would have nothing to add, and mere his presence would intimidate others. As said on the podcast, Apple has probably learned this lesson. ;)
John's recommendation: https://hypercritical.co/2014/04/27/creativity-inc
Zacgross@josephcursio @atpfm I like location based apps. Generic apps are all us focused and thus irrelevant to Australians.
Torstein
JD Bartee@atpfm
Just became a member.
I always respected the way you did ads. I actually liked hearing them. So the ad-free feed was never really much of a selling point for me. It’s almost kind of backwards, because there’s been some other shows I wish I could pay for to get out of DAI hell.
But hearing y’all talk it over today finally convinced me that you just really deserve it, and honestly - the content as-is is worth it.
John Siracusa@jdbartee Thank you! 🙏
Cameron
Jon Mullins@atpfm re: membership I may be wrong but i think roughly $1.84 an episode is waaay too cheap but understandable in the market where people have multiple podcast subscriptions. I think giving members the option to give more for liss would be well served. (Couldn’t help the pun)
Sloan Studio@atpfm I think Apple cares about margins and little of Disney is great there except hits. Maybe it increases creativite talent pool. And maybe getting terrestrial TV rights creates a new ad stream?
Kate@atpfm I've been a member since July 2020. The ad-free version isn't the selling point for me, but I really love the bootleg feed. Listening to the livestream was what took me from a casual listener to a fan. I've loved the member episodes but plenty of shows have those and this is the only podcast I pay to support.
All of this is to say that I think you guys are great & its an $8/month I'll happily continue to pay.
@atpfm Side note: I'd love an option where I can just give you $ every month, whatever level I want, separate from your membership stuff.
Nathan@atpfm for membership can you have more askATP but members get priority for the questions?
Erlend@atpfm
Re: Memberships
I agree that you can't just cut the price and expect to earn more. But I'm one of those who got turned away by the price.
I guess I'm so used to Relay shows, that I assumed it was $5 month/$50 a year. So when I saw it was $8/month with no yearly discount, I didn't subscribe.
I'm considering doing it now, though, because of The Situation - but would love it if there was an option at $5/$50 or something. Like maybe _only_ the ad free feed? 🤔
Or at least $80/year...
Tony of PixelNoiseFM@atpfm The point was made on the show that getting rid of ad spots entirely and replacing them with membership spots would reduce the value of the ad-free show. I would like to argue that may not be the case, or if it is, it may be less of a deterrent to people subscribing than you think. Sure, people will pay to not be advertised to, but I think even more people will pay to not be interrupted when listening to the show they love. Ex: I’d love to pay for a pledge-drive free version of PBS.
charlesesmith@atpfm E1-now episode completionist: no ads has never really been a good selling point for membership as the ads were not only usually not bad, but often actually interesting. I became a member fairly late because feelings mostly, but the straw was member specials. @caseyliss adding the Callsheet beta was where I really felt like I was getting my money's worth. I'd think a lot about member-only content, and discount codes for members (make the math work) for Overcast, Callsheet, F&C/SG
@atpfm @caseyliss this is, of course, assuming this is even possible in the App Store.
@atpfm @caseyliss Oh, and I'm with Casey on (at least for now!) not putting the aftershow behind membership because of precedent. That said, I'm guessing a fair amount of the audience would understand if you said "the whole show is now ad-free, but the aftershow is members only."
Chris Walker@atpfm Enjoyed the discussion of podcast econ 101. I would probably pay more for membership, maybe $10? Also, I wonder if it would be a big enough carrot to have a Discord or something for members where discussion could happen. Mastodon doesn't feel like the right forum.
Nick Clements@atpfm how about an ad for your own membership in one or more of the ad slots? Or is that already done and I don’t hear it in the member feed?
@nickclements We do that, but yeah, you won’t hear it in the member feed.
Patrick@atpfm And to replace Linode you should look into Hetzner or Digital Ocean. I hear their host read ads on some of the Linux / sysadmin podcasts.
@atpfm Fascinating insight into the challenges of the podcast ad market right now. However, I need to push back on @siracusa’s suggestion that the greatest benefit paid members receive is an ad-free version of the show. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I don’t mind the ads. In fact, @marcoarment reads them so well they’re sometimes fun. For me, the main benefits of being a member would be, in descending order: (1) supporting you three; (2) bonus content; and (3) the bootleg feed.
Frank Malinowski@kishida @atpfm @siracusa @marcoarment I agree and will add these thoughts:
1) Because of the quality of the ads, I often find out about a product I wouldn’t have otherwise know about.
2) With chapter markers they are easily skippable aren’t interested.
3) Part of your lost advertising income may be because your most loyal/willing to spend customers are no longer included in the advertising audience.
Tom Poston@atpfm I’d be more than willing to pay more than $8/ month for membership, even without any extra enticements. ATP is more valued to me than any of the $20/month streaming service subscriptions I have.
Something like Callsheet’s optional higher tiers or even Six Colors’ More Colors or Backstage Pass tiers, I’d boost my membership level immediately…
Mike Schnier@atpfm I'm so glad that @siracusa mentioned sketchy podcast ads. I listened to a journalistic investigation into unproven claims, faulty research and abuse in psychedelic medicine… and then the hosts were reading ad copy for supplements!
You should absolutely make the aftershow part of the members only feed and not feel bad about it.
adorabilis@atpfm $8/month is not very accessible where I live. I understand the necessity for membership but could you consider regional pricing if it becomes a reality? I’d love to support the show in a manner that’s sustainable for me. Please take into account your international audience.
Brilliant Things@atpfm I have always been turned off subscribing to ATP by the price. I subscribe to other podcasts for $50 per year, but because of the price I have always decided not to subscribe to ATP.
I would love a tiered subscription model. I'm not looking for benefits or features. I don't mind ads and I don't want any extra content.
It wouldn't take much for me to subscribe for $50/year. But I don't have that option.
I think the argument about the consequences of reducing the price is flawed.
I would love a tiered subscription model. I'm not looking for benefits or features. I don't mind ads and I don't want any extra content.
It wouldn't take much for me to subscribe for $50/year. But I don't have that option.
I think the argument about the consequences of reducing the price is flawed.
Kevin 
@atpfm After listening I went to see about becoming a member but backed out when I saw the price. I subscribe to most of the podcasts I listen to most often on Patreon (currently spending $22/mo on podcasts), but $8/mo is more than double all but one of the podcasts I subscribe to. The only one that is more is Naddpod which I pay $10/mo for because I get almost 4 times as many episodes that way as I would for free.
For me the sweet spot would be in the $3-4/mo range unless I got more than just an ad-free version of the main feed. Or a tiered approach like most Patreon’s do where for $4/mo you can get just an ad-free version of the main feed, or $8/mo you also get the bootleg, and $10/mo you get bootleg + monthly member specials.
For me the sweet spot would be in the $3-4/mo range unless I got more than just an ad-free version of the main feed. Or a tiered approach like most Patreon’s do where for $4/mo you can get just an ad-free version of the main feed, or $8/mo you also get the bootleg, and $10/mo you get bootleg + monthly member specials.
Michael Brown@atpfm the way @caseyliss pronounces “Fully” is like the character “Scully” from The X-files.
Re: membership, I’ve been a member in the past, but I have to admit the price puts me off. I compare it to Netflix, whose basic tier is almost the same price and you get way more content. €7 a month for a single show that only I listen to is a tough sell to my family.
That said, if ATP were to go members only I would join 😅
Re: membership, I’ve been a member in the past, but I have to admit the price puts me off. I compare it to Netflix, whose basic tier is almost the same price and you get way more content. €7 a month for a single show that only I listen to is a tough sell to my family.
That said, if ATP were to go members only I would join 😅
@atpfm Re: membership
I know the hosts don’t usually frequent the ATP subreddit, but there’s a lot of discussion on the episode post (~90 comments) about the how the post show was received, much of it in contrast to the comments here. It’s worth reading if you’re after as much of the audience’s views as possible like John stressed. https://www.reddit.com/r/ATPfm/comments/15ttiaj/548_starting_to_count_chickens
I know the hosts don’t usually frequent the ATP subreddit, but there’s a lot of discussion on the episode post (~90 comments) about the how the post show was received, much of it in contrast to the comments here. It’s worth reading if you’re after as much of the audience’s views as possible like John stressed. https://www.reddit.com/r/ATPfm/comments/15ttiaj/548_starting_to_count_chickens
@liambarber @atpfm I read that whole thread, and I didn’t hear the tone that many posters over there heard in the after-show. I didn’t hear the hosts begging for more subs, I heard them attempting to start a discussion on how to iterate on their ad strategy and how to add more value to the membership subscription. I think these are valid points to bring up and appreciate their willingness to have an open discussion with the community about it.
Casey Liss@TonyPixelNoise @liambarber I read the whole thread yesterday, which utterly ruined my day.
I can't speak to how that segment came across, but Tony, you 100% nailed the *intention* of the segment. 💙
Marius@caseyliss props for having the patience to read/reply. There’s lots of unfounded negativity there. Sometimes people forget that others have feelings.
@paint 💙
I genuinely don’t know why everyone in that subreddit is so crabby. :(
@paint @caseyliss weird isn’t it? I tried writing some counterpoints and suggested some kindness but apparently I’m “equally judgmental” and “an overly sensitive Brit”. I gave up. And frankly it wasn’t going to take much more for me to leave Reddit altogether so they made that easy.
Marc@atpfm i bought a pair of Beats Solo Pro 3 years ago. Mediocre sound, unusable transparency and noise cancellation mode due to wind noise (even when moving my head inside), and the head band snapped after 3 years. I was at best an occasional user. So Beats are (or were) definitely not up to Apple standards and I wouldn’t risk buying them again.
Taher Rangwala@atpfm @caseyliss @marcoarment @siracusa Regarding text editor follow-up, I went on a long search for one a few years back and landed on CotEditor (https://coteditor.com/).
It appears to be a BBEdit meets TextMate rip-off, but is open-source, fully Mac-native, lightweight, very performant, and rather tasteful in its UI. Also, it's being actively maintained.
Well worth a look!
Doug Miller@atpfm Regarding the post-show, imo $96/year *is* too much. I listen to 7 podcasts that ask for subscriptions; it would cost me $460 a year to pay what they ask. This just seems ludicrous to me.
Lower the price and I’d be willing. Otherwise, as much as I like to listen to the show every week, I don’t get $8/month value out of it.
The fact that two of the hosts quit jobs and now seem to be pleading poverty is not that sympathetic a pitch to me.
@_doug_miller @atpfm
Amen, it was a major cringe feat tbh.
Also, it’s not surprising the host pushing full paywall access, ironically earns his income via an app that relies solely on podcast content he literally redirects feeds from…but let’s not get lost in the weeds here.
Amen, it was a major cringe feat tbh.
Also, it’s not surprising the host pushing full paywall access, ironically earns his income via an app that relies solely on podcast content he literally redirects feeds from…but let’s not get lost in the weeds here.
@atpfm Re: Disney– I listened to this and Upgrade’s discussion on the topic and I’m surprised the value of buying the Disney brand itself hasn’t been a bigger factor in the conversation. They have a hundred-year beloved brand that spans many generations, older than almost everyone alive today. That has to have inherent value in addition to just the content, production, and media channels anyone would acquire if they bought Disney today.
@siracusa thank you. Petzl made this since forever ago. They are the goto company for these. https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Headlamps . Wasn’t sure if it’s something like this or something like this https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005005635884988.html
roland lebrun@paint @siracusa Petzl is a classic but they either work with regular batteries or they have a battery pack that seems to be micro USB only.. yuck. I have a couple of these weird cheap band ones and I like them, one is in my shop for when I work under a car and the other is in my camper, plenty of uses!
Marcos Huerta@atpfm the current administration would almost certainly oppose an Apple-Disney merger on antitrust grounds. https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/antitrust-guidelines-and-overthrowing
outadoc 
@atpfm I wonder if Marco would actually like to use an actual IDE, considering he's already using Xcode daily and was interested in having a PHP debugger. I can sort of understand wanting only a "simple" text editor, but to me working without an IDE would be **unthinkable** today.
The IntelliJ platform is amazing, and I hear PhpStorm is great. If Marco ever needs to do a major rework/refactoring in his backend code, this would be the tool to do it.
@atpfm I also just became a member - been considering it for some time, but the latest episode nudged me over the line. I am mildly curious if there was an unusual percentage uptick in the past week? For me, this podcast is in my top three, so the pricing is ok, but I understand the other views.
@eamonmason There’s always a small uptick when we release a member special or when we talk a lot about membership on the main show (though we try to limit how much we do that).
JanosSitar@atpfm Apple acquiring Disney makes sense now also that the HBO brand has been killed and it leaves an opening for a new premier tv. Also the parks are also huge drivers for health events like RunDisney. Apple could do retail presence and demoing of the headset stuff in a controlled manner
FLEEECY@atpfm If I wanted to get more subscribers and I was in your position, I would *add* an extra member-only episode *every* week. Not go member-only. Do Ask ATP more. Do more. Do more, so you get more attractive perks for members. Go from 4 episodes/month to 8 episodes/month for members.
@Fleeecy Some people complain that we already produce too much content for them to keep up with. No easy answers!
@siracusa Who’s your target audience? People that pay do so because they like to get more from you guys. Those people that want less won’t want to pay more to get less content.
Have separate feeds for these extra shows if it helps! But forcing folks to pay to get the same stuff you’re doing for ‘free’ now isn’t a solution IMHO.
Jim Kubicek@atpfm (sorry I’m a few weeks behind on this)
I would pay a buck or two over my existing membership for a exact copy of today’s member-only stream, except without any of @caseyliss’s swears edited out.
@Kubi If you can stomach lower fidelity, that's the bootleg.
@caseyliss @Kubi (Not really. He wants the edited version, but with swears.)
David Anson@siracusa @caseyliss @Kubi “Artisanally-crafted profanity” feels like a billable member benefit.. :)
Kit
Phil Buchanan
Graeme K