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ด (๐๐ฆ)Car just drove by and one of the guys in it made the ๐๐ gesture out the window at me.
Not sure if it was an observation based on my aesthetic, or the threat of a ๐ฐgood time๐ฐ, but either way...guys, this is why y'all're still single.
Richard @RBPhotographic@alice I never realised how bad it was for women until my wife had me follow her at a discreet distance while she was jogging on her own. I learnt why she only went jogging with me and that many men should not be allowed out into the world with supervision.
Dusana MykolaThatโs a really powerful observation. It hits hard when you experience it firsthand โ seeing the constant need to be cautious and aware just to feel safe. Itโs one thing to read about it or hear stories, and another to actually follow someone and realize how vulnerable everyday activities like jogging can be. Your insight also underscores the broader point: personal safety isnโt just about individual responsibility, itโs a societal issue that requires all of us to rethink behavior.
Jaimie's Erotica@rbphotographic
It's real, friend. If I go for a run, I either do it at the gym (although theres no guarantee I wont be harassed there either) or I carefully plan a route and time where I know the risks are minimised/CCTV/other people around. Even then, a high percentage of the time you're getting some dickhead calling out or gesticulating.
Yet when you talk about 'male privilege' some still deny it exists.
@alice
It's real, friend. If I go for a run, I either do it at the gym (although theres no guarantee I wont be harassed there either) or I carefully plan a route and time where I know the risks are minimised/CCTV/other people around. Even then, a high percentage of the time you're getting some dickhead calling out or gesticulating.
Yet when you talk about 'male privilege' some still deny it exists.
@alice
JF 
@Jaimieserotica
I often catch myself wondering "why would people do their run/jog on the pavement of the South Circular (one of the rather polluted ring road not far from where I live in London) and then I remember it's all a matter of feelings safer here than in a nearby park after dusk...
@rbphotographic @alice
I often catch myself wondering "why would people do their run/jog on the pavement of the South Circular (one of the rather polluted ring road not far from where I live in London) and then I remember it's all a matter of feelings safer here than in a nearby park after dusk...
@rbphotographic @alice
@jfparis @rbphotographic
Exactly that. And then you're wondering what you can wear and what you shouldn't wear. I wear sports leggings to run in because they are the most comfortable thing but, you want a dark colour so they don't draw attention and a tee-shirt which isn't too fitted. I always wear either a beanie or a baseball cap to cover my hair and would never run outside in shorts, unless I'm with other people.
It's actually fucking exhausting to have to think like this...
@Jaimieserotica
And if you wear dark colours, you can also be blamed for not being visible enough if a driver runs you over.
Catch 22
@rbphotographic @alice
@jfparis
Hi-vis tops are fine (as long as they aren't fitted) dark leggings don't show the shape of your legs and ass as much as lighter ones. Pale coloured running leggings seem to be an invitation to be harassed.
I would never exercise outdoors in anything other than full daylight anyway.
@rbphotographic @alice
Hi-vis tops are fine (as long as they aren't fitted) dark leggings don't show the shape of your legs and ass as much as lighter ones. Pale coloured running leggings seem to be an invitation to be harassed.
I would never exercise outdoors in anything other than full daylight anyway.
@rbphotographic @alice
@Jaimieserotica the fact that "does this read as `asking` for it?" is even a passing thought in most women's minds is a mark of just how wholely society has failed to address the actual problem.
B@rbphotographic @alice Same for my wife and I. There are certain gas stations she avoids because of where they are and the type of men who frequent them. We also always go food shopping together or I go by myself because she ALWAYS has something happen.
Irene Zhang@blainsmith @rbphotographic @alice I stopped grocery shopping. I hated it. I figure skate for exercise because itโs mostly women and gay men at the rink. I spend so much time with (mostly well behaved but oblivious) men at work that I mostly go to women-centered spaces now, especially if itโs on my own.
Colman Reilly
ะฏโแธถแธถ model โญ@Colman @irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic @alice
our local grocery store has a second floor and a dimly lit, excruciatingly slow elevator to get up there. i try to avoid it, but when i do have to use it, i won't board if there is a single lady also waiting to go up.
"thanks, i'll catch the next one."
the relief in their eyes that they won't be stuck in there with some strange 'dude' is palpable.
@Colman @irene @rbphotographic @alice My wife has told me she's experienced:
- Long uncomfortable stares
- Whistling
- Being followed around the store
- Random comments under their breadth
All of which were different men every time and she knows to just call me and I will answer to just be on the phone.
@blainsmith @Colman @rbphotographic @alice when I was pretty young (15 or 16), my mom would send me to the store. Once a man blocked me between his car and mine and tried to get me to go home and have sex with him for money in the grocery store parking lot. Catcalls were common when I was younger and lived in the Midwest or Boston. In Seattle, I had someone ask me out in the pasta aisle. If itโs hot and I wear a dress people will make creepy (but probably what they think are complimentary) comments. My 60-ish year old neighbor made a point of interrupting me and commenting when I was washing my car on my driveway in a tennis dress.
@blainsmith @Colman @rbphotographic @alice I get hot easily but I canโt wear clothing that is too โskimpyโ and of course thereโs the classic being sent home from school because your tank top is โdistractingโ the boys. Note that our school didnโt have AC ..
@blainsmith @Colman @rbphotographic @alice also note that Iโm going to be 40 this week so that is 25 years of dealing with this.
@irene @Colman @rbphotographic @alice I hate this for all of you and it terrifies me for the sake of my 11 y/o daughter no matter how strong mentally and physically she is. Nothing justifies this kind of behavior.
katha@blainsmith @Colman @rbphotographic I was in 8th grade, when the same thing from a driving car happend. Also, same year a guy in a very shady trench coat totally flashed three of my friends and me.
I think, I lost count of times something happend.
And yes to the description somewhere down here: men wonder where the butter is. I wonder if I get home safe.
@irene perhaps we should send the boys home for being distracted instead.
@alice @irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic well *obviously*. And I know teenage boys are hopeless, but surely in a mixed school they just get used to it? (Boys only was common here when I was young so I guess if you introduced string tops weโd have been distracted for a week or two.)
@irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic @alice Jesus. Iโm too busy trying to find the butter. (Not US based: seems to me โ and my wife โ that the problem is worse there.)
@Colman @irene @rbphotographic @alice It can get very ugly and disgusting. The entitlement some men have is just wild.
One time I was in a fast food place. After I put in my order a guy (in his 60s) before me was waiting and started verbally abusing the cashier (mid 20s) to the point she was in tears. All over a burger + fries. I yelled "HEY!" at him and as soon as he made eye contact with me he stood down. I said, "that's what I fuckin' though you asshole!"
I apologized to her after he left.
@irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic @alice and here I am trying to figure out non-creepy ways of complimenting my younger but adult ballerina colleagues on their dancing.
@Colman "you are impressively talented", "you are an amazing dancer", "I'm humbled to share a stage with someone who puts in so much effort".
Say it lightly, around other people, and then continue whatever else you were doing and let them decide whether or how to take your compliment. If they chase you up to say thanks, then you did good. If they don't, then you said something kind and that's all there is to it.
I hear a lot of guys saying things like "I don't know how to compliment a woman", and my best answer is that you do it without expecting anything in return. Most people can tell when a compliment is genuine and when it's manipulative.
@alice @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic Rule of thumb: comment on things that are changeable and they worked on, like your extension is great or you are looking solid on those turns. Absolutely do not comment on things they cannot control, like you look beautiful or you have lovely legs. For example, sometimes people say to me: you have beautiful hair and itโs weird because like itโs just my hair? What am I suppose to respond, thanks I grew it myself? I also make it a rule not to comment on peopleโs appearance at work.
Zimmie@irene @alice @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic Which also relates to a word choice Iโve been trying to be more aware of: talent versus skill. Talent is often considered innate (like โgiftedโ), while skill is always considered developed.
Ellie ๐ด๐ณ๏ธโโง๏ธ@irene I would have figured that hair falls into the category of things you can (somewhat) control. Like haircut and color is usually a choice and having good looking, healthy hair can take a good bit of time and effort, varying depending on genetics.
BewilderedKat 
@31113 @irene It may depend on the context. Compliment something that someone has clearly put effort into.
If I haven't really done much with my hair except leave it be for a few days, or if I feel it's having a scraggly day, it feels weird to get a compliment on it. But if I've put effort into it, then sure! I'll probably joke about how I put water in it, but that's more because I'm not always practiced with receiving compliments.
But things like a well out together outfit, coordinated nail color, etc make for appearance themed compliments that land much better than just body parts.
@h3mmy @31113 agreed. I really donโt do anything with my hair but I have had a terrible time finding people that know how to cut and style it because it is stiff and very straight. Only after I moved to Seattle and found a Japanese hair stylist was I able to get a decent hair cut. So my hair has always felt like a struggle. Of course itโs nothing compared to what black women go through. So you might think hair is kind of neutral but our shitty system has politicized it, like basically everything else about womenโs bodies. https://legaldefensefund.substack.com/p/black-people-face-hair-discrimination
@irene That sadly makes sense. I didn't end up going into academia, but I am in a field that is skewed. My employer does better with representation than most, but there is implicit bias everywhere.
Are you at least able to do what you want with your hair now?
@h3mmy yes! Right now it is violently pink. Thatโs my whole mood. Violently pink
This brings joy! 
Natasha Ekara@irene
๐ฏ
I have a couple of friends with stiff straight hair, and it was surprising to me how much difficulty they had finding a good stylist.
One ended up just doing it themselves since they prefer short styles.
I'm used to the fact that it's difficult to find a good hair person for my ethnic hair, and have been lucky to have a steady stylist for a few years in a row now.
Negative12DollarBill@alice @Colman @irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic
As an older guy who works with a lot of younger women, if I ever give them a compliment it is a completely neutral phrase like "you look amazing". No implication of attraction involved. "You look great" seems safe. What do you think?
@negative12dollarbill @alice @irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic I also have the disability of being brought up in London and Ireland in the 70s so compliments are a foreign language to start with.
Also, keep in mind that they are scantily dressed so I'm definitely safest not noticing anything about their appearance!
@Colman @negative12dollarbill @alice @blainsmith @rbphotographic ya know, not every thought has to be voiced. You can think to yourself that outfit looks great on you and not say it to a woman. Itโs totally fine if you go through life without ever complimenting a woman on how they look. We really wonโt mind
@irene @Colman @negative12dollarbill @alice @rbphotographic Exactly. Unfortunately, its just years and years of old customs passed on to kids over time until some break the cycle. Hopefully, my son is learning by seeing how I treat/act around women so he grows up a better man than I am. My dad did his best for me during the generation I grew up in and I can only keep that going and pass it on while also adding my own views.
@negative12dollarbill @alice @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic itโs better to compliment them on their work. Women are so use to being objectified and only there to be looked at that they sometimes want to not be looked at and judged on their appearance. Iโm not speaking for all women but for me at least, I donโt think of how I look at work at all. It can be jarring to be reminded of it when Iโm at work, I think of myself as a sort of formless blob talking about operating systems. You might think itโs a compliment but it might be difficult for the women to have to stop their work and think about how to respond. I might recommend you read this blog post that I wrote for more insights. https://irenezhang.com/blog/2024/07/24/misogyny.html
@irene @negative12dollarbill @alice @Colman @rbphotographic When my daughter first started getting into dressing herself with outfits of her design I never replied with "you look so pretty/cute/etc". I always phased it as "you're outfit choice today is so creative" and then followed up with asking how she ended up choosing it. This way it still support her in a way she wanted to be support, but never about her looks and always about her choices of creativity she wanted to share with me.
@blainsmith @negative12dollarbill @alice @Colman @rbphotographic Awesome yes! I almost never have an issue with women complimenting me because itโs almost always about a specific item of clothing that Iโm wearing. Then because Iโm Asian and Midwestern, I have to tell them what a good deal that I got on it. ๐
@irene this! I get a lot of compliments from women about my earrings, my style, my (dyed) hair, etc. Men more often compliment my looks, my "fit" (which is actually a term I don't mind if it's not said hungrily), etc.
GinevraCat@blainsmith @ShaulaEvans I love this.
Numerfolt
cwicseolfor@Colman @irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic @alice CONSTANTLY. My partner does all the grocery shopping now because he (I could cut the sentence there, but) is big enough to be imposing. The aisles can be bad, the lines are worse, but the parking lots are awful.
I got used to wearing big baggy shapeless coats if shopping, but honestly that doesn't help much, because it's often not at all about how you look, it's about men feeling entitled to interrupt your day, commandeer your time and attention and sometimes personal space, and generally harass you as if you've come into THEIR space by existing while female (or feminized) in public. Wearing respirators, once covid began, actually seemed to make it worse and more openly aggressive.
Men who compliment without objectification were far less annoying, but in some ways it's more frustrating, because your patience for interruption has been eaten up by the four jerks in the half hour before him and you have to either swallow that or take it out on someone who doesn't really deserve it. Men ruin flirting for other men, basically.
Complimenting someone's skill or ability or creative expressiveness is always a better bet than complimenting how they make you feel (beauty, attraction, any of the stuff in the eye of the beholder isn't actually a signal being "sent," but an experience internal to the audience, according to their personal taste) - essentially the same compliments a man would give another man, until and unless there's a relationship that starts skewing toward the romantic. The flirting edge of playfulness can come in before that, and the intensity of reciprocation can then be indicative.
@cwicseolfor @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic @alice thanks this is actually really helpful and validating. I thought I was the only one that hated grocery shopping or was tired of putting up with this BS.
@irene @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic @alice I'm so sorry and furious on behalf of both and all of us.
Grocery shopping used to be my favorite pasttime and hobby - almost every thread I've been in today has been about food. But harassment has ruined it. (Even as I type that, though, my thought is 'Countdown until some well-intended guy tells me that I shouldn't let men define my activities.' I'm not particularly averse to conflict, but it is so. exhausting. when you were just trying to have a nice time.)
A lot of the comments can't be repeated without violating social media terms of service, but I think it says a lot about entitlement culture re: women's bodies that I have *on more than one occasion* had a plastic surgeon come up to me unsolicited to make suggested "improvements" before I was even 25.
โจpencilearsโจ@cwicseolfor @irene @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic @alice
I don't run into too much trouble going to stores, but also, I am tall, scary, and I shop mid-day on weekdays when nobody else is out.
So like, my experiences are not universal.
world's worst goth@blainsmith @rbphotographic @alice I paid a 20c/gallon "won't get harassed at the other gas station" tax this week, so real.
kit@rbphotographic
That's another part of the problem.
Nobody believes without some level of "proof" :-/
And, of course, there is no way to tell what sort of bloke the one you encounter is going to be, sometimes even when you thought you knew them well.
EQ@rbphotographic @alice I play a GPS game where I bike to zones IRL, stand still for 15 seconds and then rush to the next. My problem is that it's a very common jogging route and when I start passing the same woman the second time I'm getting a bit uneasy since I know how it looks... Luckily the forest is full of sidetracks and lately there is new zones popping up so it's possible to choose different routes. Earlier I just took a break while planning a new route.
@rbphotographic I'm out a lot in the area since the zones are everywhere and so far I haven't seen a single bad behaviour against women. I know it happens because it has been a couple of cases on the news that ended up in court for assult but I have never witnessed even a whistle after a woman so I guess we are lucky here.
I have also been working in industry jobs that are notorious for it but there was nothing there either. But we northerners are known for being standoffish I guess ๐
@eq it's often invisible to folx other than the target.
The only person besides me that saw this one was one of the other guys in the car who pulled a ๐คญ as his friend gestured at me.
@alice Ah sorry, didn't really understand the symbols and missed the "gesture" part. Yes, that is hard to see. The area I'm in is no cars allowed and humans far appart. I guess people also feel less anonymous so being more careful with what they do in public.
When I was younger I had long hair. There was a guy driving past that from behind took me for a woman. He was was almost falling out of his car when I turned grinning at him with a 3-4 cm beard. Found the gas-pedal fast though๐