Mastodawn

CANELA BLANCA Mar 4

@benroyce Man, I voted for Crockett. She’s my choice. I even skipped a Talarico event b/c I don’t care about him. I’ll vote for him in November because I’m not some wastey panty.

@christopherbrown

THIS IS THE WAY

you show up in the #primaries

you choose the candidate further left

you don't vote the primaries? then don't open your entitled fucking mouth about #politics ever again

in the general #election, *no matter who won the primary*, you have a cluster of your braincells firing a low baseline of simple human cognition, and it says: "fuck this #Trump #MAGA #fascism"

and you vote #Democrat, even though they fucking suck

BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT FUCKING STUPID

#VOTE!

CANELA BLANCA Mar 4

@benroyce My metrics have been who is more radical, who is more liberal, who is more socialist, knowing full well I will not achieve a “perfect” candidate.

It’s really not difficult!

@christopherbrown

it isn't

and yet we seem to be floating in a sea of morons or outright rightwing cosplayers saying otherwise

apparently the real world doesn't matter, and it's all in our heads, and only our self-regard matters

selfish nonvoters

Ann T. Phở Mar 4

@benroyce there's going to definitely be a runoff for the Republicans. Dems are too close to call with roughly 40% remaining (primarily election day vote), not to mention all the shenanigans in Dallas courtesy of Paxton & the GOP.

@DrSaucy

yeah i heard a judge extended voting in dallas

nail biter

Ann T. Phở Mar 4

@benroyce Paxton took it to Texas Supreme Court & they paused the judge's order.

@DrSaucy

fucking christ

Ann T. Phở Mar 4

@benroyce AP called the Republican primary as a runoff between Cornyn (43%) and Paxton (40.5%). Great news because they'll burn through money while attacking each other for 12 more weeks.

@DrSaucy 😁

Sara Mar 4

@benroyce there's some accounts I follow just so I can watch this phenomenon in action

like, dude

you show up only for elections and global events involving explosions

you are some kind of indistinct anarcho-tankie, without any kind of clearly articulated politics and no nuance whatsoever

you claim to have cats but never post pictures of them

we recognize what you're doing here

@sarae

tankies are the easiest for a right winger to fake, right wingers and tankies are both fascistic in their authoritarianism

and real tankies i think are just right wingers still evolving, and will eventually no longer be tankies, and wind up as straight fascists in a few months/ years

@benroyce @sarae I see the same thing in Libertarians and Anarcho-Capitalists (whatever the fuck that is) they are straight up small government conservatives who are only against authoritarianism when it involves their liberty.

They claim to be against government but love a bit of governance as long as they don't have to pay taxes to get it and can still do whatever the fuck they like in their own backyard.

@naturepunk @sarae

both libertarianism and anarchism is dumb in that there is no such thing as a power vacuum. it gets filled one way or another

and so both libertarians and anarchists are getting steamrolled by the local gang leader turned warlord in their utopian vision of their libertarian/ anarchist paradise

they all seem like very earnest, very naive college sophomores who just read a book and are very excited but have zero experience with certain unfortunate aspects of human nature

@benroyce @sarae I'm an anarchist ;)

I don't expect to see the utopia I want to live in to exist in my lifetime but if humanity survives then why not in the future.

There isn't a power vacuum problem in anarchy. The power is distributed in a more equal fashion.

A warlord can only exist if they remove power from their foot soldiers to kickstart the regime. Where are they getting the power to do that from without foot soldiers? They have a bootstrap problem ;)

PlantagoLabs Mar 4

@naturepunk @benroyce @sarae By starting a cult. Not everyone wants to be a free thinker.

@plantagolabs @benroyce @sarae that's very possible but there is still a bootstrap problem.

It's easy for cults to recruit in an unequal world but harder when there is equality everywhere and people have the time to support each other when they feel marginalised.

I'm not sure a cult could grow to the extent it could over throw anything other than the smallest community when the norms of society are to provide for everyone and respect their choices even if they are add odds with that society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_Loeb

unfortunately it doesn't work that way

you can have everyone provided for materially, and there's still many who will wind up as thieves and murderers

you're very well meaning but rather naive

people can be quite nasty. sometimes for no other reason than pique

Leopold and Loeb - Wikipedia

@benroyce @plantagolabs @sarae like I've said I don't know how to get there but once we do objections to the idea that exist due to issues in todays society will be moot.

"You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"

dreaming is great

however it is effective action that changes the world

you need to articulate a plan, not merely state a destination

otherwise no one is ever going to arrive at that destination

@benroyce @plantagolabs @sarae The way to get there is to try and do a little to improve the world every day and live the change you want to see in the world.

You live by that code already.

We all have the power to make the world a better place and eventually it becomes the best place.

The process is as valid as the destination even if nobody can define the exact way we get there we know that by trying we make things better for everyone.

see i like you and my intent is not to crush your soul

i just believe that you might need to adjust your methods, and your final destination, because i think you might not perceive just how vicious and nasty people can be, often times for no good reason at all. and that this is enough to destroy so much, that you need better safeguards and better recruitment methods to engage where people are, rather than an idealized vision of where they might be

@benroyce I don't need those things, we all do :)

I'm not trying to sell this to anybody because I truly believe it's the place humanity arrives at should it survive long enough. :)

I grew up in Thatcher's England. I know how nasty people can be I just believe they can be better.

everyone can do better

but then you encounter those who don't want to do better

they enjoy the damage they inflict. even if hurts themselves

sadists

here in the USA, that's the MAGA movement. it's predicated on bigotry and prideful ignorance

and there's millions and millions of them

in such an environment, you can't make even a tiny dent towards your noble goals. and the adversity is so profound, you need to adjust more than your methods, you need to adjust your goals

@benroyce my only goal is leaving the planet a little better for my existing and I try and do this by doing something worthwhile as often as possible most frequently in tiny things that are considered completely normal.

and that's kid of it's own reward

you and i, we don't litter not because we fear some sort of punishment

we simply do not litter because it's about how we view ourselves, and it would be self-violation

to extend that to feeling others is painstaking, without violating others and where they are in life, innocently or maliciously

PlantagoLabs Mar 4

@benroyce @naturepunk @sarae I see human progress as climbing a mountain attached together with a rope. It is fun to argue which summit is highest, but we need to get out of the misty swamps first. Any step up is in the right direction at this point.

IMO if some want to believe in the good nature of humans, let them be, as long as they help pull upwards.

@plantagolabs @naturepunk @sarae

well said but on the contrary i think the left is divided enough as it is, that siphoning off so much good will and effort to pipe dreams is not so much a threat, as just a waste of resources. because they're not necessarily pulling towards the same destination

but i agree everyone is allowed to dream

as long as their dreaming doesn't interfere with real world goals and real world actions that actually are improving the world

@benroyce @plantagolabs @sarae I'm one of those anarchists who is enough of realist to understand I live in a parliamentary democracy and the most important thing I can do is vote for the candidate who is going to do the least harm.

Even with our first past the post system it's easier to do that here than over there with almost a two party system and I acknowledge that it's harder for you guys to break that duopoly.

The left over here will turn the country Green :)

i don't like you anymore, i love you

that's it

you can separate longterm goals vs shortterm goals, and still act effectively

sorry for giving you such a run around, it's just that i do see people out there who are quite antagonistic. they don't help. they just sort of close themselves off in their mind palace and dream and don't achieve anything except their own self-regard, as they watch the world decay to even worse and don't act

that is not you

@benroyce thank you :)

no thank you

it is these sort of conversations which are the best of mastodon. the best of life

@plantagolabs @benroyce @sarae debating the the high point is always fun but you're exactly right that pulling together to drag us out of the swamp is the best first step which is what I believe we're doing here and what everyone involved in this conversation tries to do in their lives.

@naturepunk @sarae

Thieves are thieves. There's always thieving, from the streets to Wall Street. There's an endless supply of thieves for any gang, always. And if you don't combat them they team up and take over

Anarchism does work. In small groups. It does not work for societies

@benroyce @sarae there wouldn't be a Wall St nor any reason to thieve if everyone has equal access to all resources then the only property worth stealing would be owned by all and private property wouldn't have a value outside of the value an owner puts in it.

Like I said I don't think I'll see it because I don't know how to get past the problems in our society to get to that point but once there thievery is going to be minimal.

@naturepunk @sarae

correct there wouldn't be any reason to thieve

there would still be thieves

you seem unaware of some rather unfortunate aspects of human existence

material need is not the only driver of human behavior

sometimes, an evil asshole is just an evil asshole

@benroyce I am naïve in the fact I don't believe in evil and I understand lots of people don't feel that way.

I just can't understand the concept behind that aspect of morality without the religious baggage it comes with. People can be good and I understand that means they are altruistic and got above the norms but I don't think doing less than the norm is evil only lazy or dickish.

Some people are sick but I don't believe people can be Evil.

That's fine you don't have to use my language or moralize. But you do have to admit that every single person can be provided for everything they need, and some will still be hellbent on destruction for selfish desires. As for why: just because they can. Because it's funny

Whatever you call this, whatever word you use, it's unfortunately very real

@benroyce I'm not sure it would be an issue on a scale that would impact society though.

It would be just kids cow-tipping or whatever the kids are getting up to in the local area when they are bored.

It's hard to envision how, if we ever get to that point, there can ever be enough people mobilised to cause the community real damage and not be considered ill and cared for appropriately.

yes but you're talking about handling these people in ways that destroy all of the precepts of anarchism. they have a will, and it clashes with society's will, and they have to be controlled and curtailed in some way, or otherwise the damage they can do is terrible. there is no magical treatment that can address them quickly and miraculously to change their intent. even outside of criminality, simple strong differences of opinions are enough to ruin how anarchism might work

@benroyce we're disagreeing now in a manner that isn't destructive in the slightest.

Not agreeing with something a community decides is something that will regularly happen but doesn't need to end the relationship with your peers just shift it slightly on a single issue.

Only rejecting a core tenet of society would be enough for a breakdown. I don't deny some people would do this but I don't see it as damaging to society.

well we see it already right? the fracturing of society to different goals winding up in quite dramatic tribal infighting

not even left v right, just inside the left even

such that what you envision, everyone agreeing on the goals mostly, and only a few minor pesky opinion differences serving as a sort of minor background noise, i don't think is how it can be, how it ever could be

we as humans just are not built that way, i think, unfortunately

but i'm not against improvement!

@benroyce It's always been the same. I used to belong to a socialist political party and the amount bickering and biting against people with exactly the same aims in society just a very slightly different form of governance when you get there was diabolical. That's what turned me away from more authoritarian forms of left leaning theology. Nice folks becoming nasty about what badge or banner somebody on the same march wears. Not for me.

yes exactly

and that takes us right back to the tankies

😩

uggh. so tedious they are

authoritarianism is our enemy, everywhere

Sara Mar 4

@benroyce @naturepunk enh, I used to be a committed institutionalist but I lost a lot of faith last year

I'm starting to think the anarchists have some good points

which makes me sad

@sarae @naturepunk

yes, our institutions are being destroyed

but if we go to "no institutions" it's not like the plutocrats and bigots disappear. good luck to anarchists fighting that without any resources

@benroyce @naturepunk @sarae

Brian Gordon Mar 4

I find libertarians and anarchists go silent when confronted with this problem. Neither system has a way to defend against the inevitable sociopaths who will arise and attempt to dominate and destroy. Pre-civilisation people killed their psychos. We promote them to the top positions.

"both libertarians and anarchists are getting steamrolled by the local gang leader turned warlord in their utopian vision of their libertarian/ anarchist paradise"

#narcissist

@elasticsoul @naturepunk @sarae

we saw that with communism

it started with great idealism

and wound up at stalin

or totalitarian hypercapitalism like china

or various moribund kleptocracies who can barely keep the lights on

north korea with its juche is the worst. a combination of being propped up by neighbors and war cult while its people are savaged

naivete and idealism will not save us

we have to have reasonable goals

@elasticsoul @benroyce @sarae you don't have to lose institutions because we don't have central governance we're not all nihilists ;)

The intuitions you want to keep can exist happily without government and be better at serving their purpose with less issues under anarchy than they can now.

Anarchists aren't against organisation or cooperation, quite the opposite. People can organise co-operatively with direct democracy to fulfil any need.

yeah but it's all voluntary in anarchism

there will be people who don't want to contribute, or people who want to do something else and so some necessary functions will go unfilled

are you going to coerce them?

@benroyce @elasticsoul @sarae people empty the cess pits in intentional communities today :)

Honestly, I believe that everybody will contribute in some way or another and once an issue is raised to show a need isn't being met somebody will take it on even if it's just a one off.

I don't see any need to weigh up peoples contributions which has to be expected to vary massively even in an individual.

From each according to his ability... etc

and people who don't contribute?

you understand that this is not a minor problem, right? it's a huge one

i'm not talking ability, i'm talking "well i don't want to do that, i want to do this, so i'm not doing anything"

if that sounds like a child, yes, it is. and many many adults operate in this way. it's not about coercion, it's about society's will vs individual will, and resolving that just does not happen in anarchism

@benroyce @elasticsoul @sarae nope, it's a major problem in todays society but outside of periods of extreme scarcity if somebody wants to sit and write haiku and never let anybody read them then their consumption won't bring down society.

You've got to understand I'm not saying switch now. It happens when people understand it's possible to live like this and humanity decides to live in a better way. Those folks won't be so brow beaten or jaded by current events.

see the problem with topics like this is it seems like to some, (not you, others reading) that i am arguing against something, or arguing for cynicism and discouragement

but my message is simply that your view of human nature is unfortunately very naive

even with absolutely every material need accounted for, plenty will help yes. and yet more will not

call me a pessimist, but i believe that what i am saying about human nature is unfortunately true

@benroyce @elasticsoul @sarae I genuinely don't think that is the case.

We are social animals evolved to live in extended family groups. What I'm suggesting is there are forms of decision making that work with our natural instincts instead of harm them.

I think when people live in a society that is more suited to humanity their humanity flourishes.

While some will appear to bring, materially at least, less to the society it will be at a lower rate than today.

we also evolved constantly at war with the next tribe over in the next valley

so in our cognition we have fear and hate. the amygdala. negative emotions are amplified

just look at bigotry for example

"bigotry won't exist"

oh yes it will. if you magically removed every bigot in existence, it would merely organically appear again and reassert itself. all it takes is selfishness and shallow external signifiers

"selfishness won't exist"

oh dear

@benroyce @elasticsoul @sarae you don't need war for resources when we aren't consuming more resources than is sustainable and communities have interlinked dependence with their neighbours when it comes to specific resources anyway.

I see no difference with sharing one resource when you already share the pool of skilled people and knowledge with no friction.

Selfishness and bigotry will be seen as a left over from our evolution in a resources scarce world.

@benroyce going to have to leave this here until about 6:30 AM GMT.

I spend the evening with the family and no social media.

I'll follow up tomorrow. Have a good evening when the planet spin and tilt hits that point for you :)

yes but you alluded to social evolution

giving us our virtuous qualities

and i corrected you to point out we also evolved socially to be at constant war with the tribe in the next valley over

giving us our monstrous qualities

so even if you have the most virtuous nirvana possible addressing every one of our possible needs, it makes no difference. for what is in our hearts from our evolutionary history is still there