@benroyce there's some accounts I follow just so I can watch this phenomenon in action

like, dude

you show up only for elections and global events involving explosions

you are some kind of indistinct anarcho-tankie, without any kind of clearly articulated politics and no nuance whatsoever

you claim to have cats but never post pictures of them

we recognize what you're doing here

@sarae

tankies are the easiest for a right winger to fake, right wingers and tankies are both fascistic in their authoritarianism

and real tankies i think are just right wingers still evolving, and will eventually no longer be tankies, and wind up as straight fascists in a few months/ years

@benroyce @sarae I see the same thing in Libertarians and Anarcho-Capitalists (whatever the fuck that is) they are straight up small government conservatives who are only against authoritarianism when it involves their liberty.

They claim to be against government but love a bit of governance as long as they don't have to pay taxes to get it and can still do whatever the fuck they like in their own backyard.

@naturepunk @sarae

both libertarianism and anarchism is dumb in that there is no such thing as a power vacuum. it gets filled one way or another

and so both libertarians and anarchists are getting steamrolled by the local gang leader turned warlord in their utopian vision of their libertarian/ anarchist paradise

they all seem like very earnest, very naive college sophomores who just read a book and are very excited but have zero experience with certain unfortunate aspects of human nature

@benroyce @naturepunk @sarae

I find libertarians and anarchists go silent when confronted with this problem. Neither system has a way to defend against the inevitable sociopaths who will arise and attempt to dominate and destroy. Pre-civilisation people killed their psychos. We promote them to the top positions.

"both libertarians and anarchists are getting steamrolled by the local gang leader turned warlord in their utopian vision of their libertarian/ anarchist paradise"

#narcissist

@elasticsoul @benroyce @sarae you don't have to lose institutions because we don't have central governance we're not all nihilists ;)

The intuitions you want to keep can exist happily without government and be better at serving their purpose with less issues under anarchy than they can now.

Anarchists aren't against organisation or cooperation, quite the opposite. People can organise co-operatively with direct democracy to fulfil any need.

@naturepunk @elasticsoul @sarae

yeah but it's all voluntary in anarchism

there will be people who don't want to contribute, or people who want to do something else and so some necessary functions will go unfilled

are you going to coerce them?

@benroyce @elasticsoul @sarae people empty the cess pits in intentional communities today :)

Honestly, I believe that everybody will contribute in some way or another and once an issue is raised to show a need isn't being met somebody will take it on even if it's just a one off.

I don't see any need to weigh up peoples contributions which has to be expected to vary massively even in an individual.

From each according to his ability... etc

@naturepunk @elasticsoul @sarae

and people who don't contribute?

you understand that this is not a minor problem, right? it's a huge one

i'm not talking ability, i'm talking "well i don't want to do that, i want to do this, so i'm not doing anything"

if that sounds like a child, yes, it is. and many many adults operate in this way. it's not about coercion, it's about society's will vs individual will, and resolving that just does not happen in anarchism

@benroyce @elasticsoul @sarae nope, it's a major problem in todays society but outside of periods of extreme scarcity if somebody wants to sit and write haiku and never let anybody read them then their consumption won't bring down society.

You've got to understand I'm not saying switch now. It happens when people understand it's possible to live like this and humanity decides to live in a better way. Those folks won't be so brow beaten or jaded by current events.

@naturepunk @elasticsoul @sarae

see the problem with topics like this is it seems like to some, (not you, others reading) that i am arguing against something, or arguing for cynicism and discouragement

but my message is simply that your view of human nature is unfortunately very naive

even with absolutely every material need accounted for, plenty will help yes. and yet more will not

call me a pessimist, but i believe that what i am saying about human nature is unfortunately true

@benroyce @elasticsoul @sarae I genuinely don't think that is the case.

We are social animals evolved to live in extended family groups. What I'm suggesting is there are forms of decision making that work with our natural instincts instead of harm them.

I think when people live in a society that is more suited to humanity their humanity flourishes.

While some will appear to bring, materially at least, less to the society it will be at a lower rate than today.

@naturepunk @elasticsoul @sarae

we also evolved constantly at war with the next tribe over in the next valley

so in our cognition we have fear and hate. the amygdala. negative emotions are amplified

just look at bigotry for example

"bigotry won't exist"

oh yes it will. if you magically removed every bigot in existence, it would merely organically appear again and reassert itself. all it takes is selfishness and shallow external signifiers

"selfishness won't exist"

oh dear

@benroyce @elasticsoul @sarae you don't need war for resources when we aren't consuming more resources than is sustainable and communities have interlinked dependence with their neighbours when it comes to specific resources anyway.

I see no difference with sharing one resource when you already share the pool of skilled people and knowledge with no friction.

Selfishness and bigotry will be seen as a left over from our evolution in a resources scarce world.