Mastodawn

Mozilla's Original Sin.

Some will tell you that Mozilla's worst decision was to accept funding from Google, and that may have been the first domino, but I hold that implementing DRM is what doomed them, as it led to their culture of capitulation. It demonstrated that their decisions were the decisions of a *company shipping products*, not those of a non-profit devoted to preserving the open web.

Those are different things and are very much in conflict. [...]
https://jwz.org/b/ykVr

Mozilla's Original Sin

Some will tell you that Mozilla's worst decision was to accept funding from Google, and that may have been the first domino, but I hold that implementing DRM is what doomed them, as it led to their culture of capitulation. It demonstrated that their decisions were the decisions of a company shipping products, not those of a non-profit devoted to preserving the open web. Those are different ...

hexaheximal Jun 22, 2024

obvious CC: @endDRM ;)

Florian Idelberger Jun 22, 2024

@jwz disagree. I know many ppl that would or could not use Firefox if they hadn’t and like this it’s a viable alternative. What do the gazilion Mozilla/netscape/firefox or chromium forks/alternatives do for the open web because they disable drm or replaced / removed other functionality? Not much.

Florian Idelberger Jun 22, 2024

@jwz I’m sure ffx ppl could do more and it can lead to bad things, but many other roads just lead to irrelevance. In that sense, shipping things is importantly, because of you f e have the most morally correct product, but many cannot use it or it cannot do what they need, what impact do you really have?

jwz Jun 22, 2024

@fl0_id "But some people would not have used Firefox" is exactly the argument for market share over principles that got us into this mess.

Florian Idelberger Jun 22, 2024

@jwz not ‘some people’ but basically no one would have used it. I don’t disagree that it (engaging with market realities) is also a problem, but that does not mean that the opposite would have been better

jwz Jun 22, 2024

@fl0_id Well, you're wrong. \/\/

Damian Yerrick Jun 23, 2024

@jwz @fl0_id Please help me understand how. Among people who use Windows, macOS, or desktop Linux, and subscribe to a subscription audio or video streaming service, what program would they have used alongside DRM-free Firefox to interact with said streaming service?

jwz Jun 23, 2024

@PinoBatch If the only thing you think a web browser is for is watching Netflix, maybe Internet Explorer is a better browser for you.

I haven't watched a DRM-encumbered file since probably 2009. And that wasn't in a browser, it was on a TiVo.

People who have jobs, for example, tend to use web browsers for things other than watching television.

But those kitten cold cuts sure are tasty!

Mister Moo 🐮Jun 23, 2024

@jwz @PinoBatch "I haven't watched a DRM-encumbered file since probably 2009."

Damian Yerrick Jun 23, 2024

@jwz Say people use web browsers for things other than watching television. What other program would they use for watching television on Windows, macOS, and desktop Linux?

Jay Jul 2, 2024

@jwz @PinoBatch certainly in all the government and finance sector contracts I've worked, watching the safety training was mandatory, and only supplied on DRM'd formats. The lock in is as complete across about 80% of work use cases as it is for mainstream media consumption.

varx/tech Jun 23, 2024

@PinoBatch @jwz @fl0_id DRM is more common now than when Mozilla first implemented it in Firefox. If Mozilla had not implemented it, that would have impeded the wider adoption of DRM.

Damian Yerrick Jun 23, 2024

@varx @jwz @fl0_id In practice, refusing to implement Encrypted Media Extensions would have required each streaming provider to publish a macOS native app and a Windows native app to view the service. This would have left users of desktop Linux unable to view what they were paying for.

If you have ideas for a business model for a subscription #streaming service that does not rely on digital restrictions management to deter casual stream ripping, I'm interested. For comparison, cable TV has been scrambling pay-per-view for decades and using Macrovision ACP to block VCR use.

varx/tech Jun 24, 2024

@PinoBatch DRM has never been an effective means of deterring stream ripping. And there are already subscription streaming services that use the ground-breaking model of "you pay us money, we send you video" without involving DRM.

PuercoPop Jun 22, 2024

@fl0_id @jwz there were and are a multiple people that would have used Firefox if they took a stance against DRM. Those that care about the open web. You know their _mission_. If you can't see how supporting drm means abandonding their mission then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. This isnt even a one step back two forward strategy. Its not like they implemented DRM as part of a larger plan to provide a non DRMed alternative

Florian Idelberger Jun 22, 2024

@PuercoPop @jwz I'm not saying there weren't, just overall not many. I don't like drm either, I just think that often you have to balance principles against usability, market forces and all kinds of other things. open web proponents and similar are very bad at this, and always think their priorities are most important.

Oblomov Jun 23, 2024

@fl0_id @PuercoPop @jwz a crucial point you're missing is that Mozilla refusing to add DRM support to Firefox would have struck a major blow to its effective standardization. (It would have also been a slap in the face of TBL caving in and selling his soul to the MAFIAA, but that's just a side benefit.)

BTW the same thing in reverse is now happening with JPEG XL adoption.

Andres Jun 23, 2024

@fl0_id @jwz See, we always knew that if Debian didn't include binary kernel drivers, no one would use it. And that's how it faded away into obscurity, and definitely didn't become the basis for multiple of the most popular linux distributions while also itself maintaining a healthy user base.. 🧐

gullevek ☢️ 🇯🇵Jun 23, 2024

@Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Isn’t Ubuntu so popular because it adds back all the stuff Debian didn’t add?

Wyatt (🏳️‍⚧️♀?)Jun 23, 2024

@gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz ubuntu is/was popular because it provides commercial support and containers and other garbage Shiny New Stuff that People Need™ that pollutes the basic philosophy of debian.
Ubuntu didn't include firmware for a very long time and was still the most popular choice.

Jeremiah C. Foster 🇸🇪🇺🇸🍥Jun 23, 2024

@wyatt8740 @gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz But Debian provides containers too. They’re really a technology based on the Linux kernel, not the OS.

Wyatt (🏳️‍⚧️♀?)Jun 23, 2024

@jeremiah_ @gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz sure, in that chroots are a container.
I meant flatpak/snap as a way to avoid being responsible

John Goerzen Jun 23, 2024

@gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz I've been using #Debian since at least 1996. I don't know what it's missing that is holding me back. Ubuntu is missing a lot, particularly in support for less-popular architectures.

Isn't Ubuntu popular with people that want the latest and greatest and don't like Debian's release cycle?

And that's fine, but completely orthogonal to this issue.

gullevek ☢️ 🇯🇵Jun 23, 2024

@jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Can’t really say. Also Debian user here since forever. But it just felt like Ubuntu has all this extra shiny that Debian doesn’t have.

Jeremiah C. Foster 🇸🇪🇺🇸🍥Jun 23, 2024

@gullevek @jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Not really. It’s ~80% Debian. The is rest proprietary drivers and technologies no one uses, e.g. snaps, mir, upstart, lxc. They provide commercial support which businesses love.

gullevek ☢️ 🇯🇵Jun 23, 2024

@jeremiah_ @jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Snaps are a pain in the ass

Arcticulate Jun 23, 2024

@jeremiah_ @gullevek @jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Ubuntu is responsible for getting Linux known among mainstream PC enthusiasts on a global scale. I say ”enthusiasts” (and informed ”regular” people) because they haven’t focused on every demographic, unlike a handful of companies’ distro attempts in the 1990s, like Lindows/Linspire, Caldera (aka SCO 🤦‍♂️), Mandrake/Mandriva, etc.

Jeremiah C. Foster 🇸🇪🇺🇸🍥Jun 23, 2024

@Arcticulate @gullevek @jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Good point. I remember getting a Ubuntu CD in the post for free.

Semitones Jun 23, 2024

@jgoerzen @gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz a when I was getting started, Ubuntu was billed as a Debian you didn't have to configure yourself. Kind of like a "Debian for the rest of us"

Dan Hugo Jun 23, 2024

@Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz

Debian unstable since I worked at NSCP a long, long time ago… some other stuff mixed in, but sid and me the whole way.

Lutin Discret Jun 23, 2024

@jwz it's actually a problem of market share. Firefox had to implements DRM or it was doomed to death. If it had more market share, it could had refused to implements DRM and noone could have been against that. The long term strategy plan is to lose the DRM battle to win the war. When Firefox will be to 90% market-share, they will ditch DRM and everyone will STFU. Ditching DRM now is just becoming unusable and losing the war. Your plan is what will make Google win.

Von Xylofon Jun 22, 2024

@jwz @fl0_id I am genuinely curious how you plan to influence the web from a position of a browser that has a user base that is equal to a rounding error.

Insistence on not compromising brought us the magnificent thing that was Adobe Flash. No, thanks.

Semitones Jun 22, 2024

@vonxylofon @jwz @fl0_id what do you mean about flash?

Von Xylofon Jun 23, 2024

@semitones @jwz @fl0_id W3C was widely criticised by FLOSS advocates for implementing DRM in the HTML5 specification, but without it, playing a DRM'd video was only possible in Flash or Silverlight etc. Mozilla actually vocally spoke out against the proposal, but it was this very technology that rid us of the inaccesible, buggy, and insecure mess that Flash was.

soc Jun 23, 2024

@vonxylofon @jwz @fl0_id Did you have a look at Firefox' market share lately?

Maybe you should have before posting; would have prevented you from looking that silly.

Von Xylofon Jun 23, 2024

@soc @jwz @fl0_id I did as a matter of fact, and I wonder how preventing people from watching Netflix would have helped.

itorres Jun 22, 2024

@fl0_id @jwz “I know many people that wouldn’t have adopted a puppy without the free kitten deli slices deal”.

Justin ⏚Jun 22, 2024

@fl0_id @jwz I agree, given a choice between "just works" and the idealistic solution, "just works" wins 99% of the time. I'm happy there exists an alternative to chromium that "just works" when I need it to.

@fl0_id @jwz Yup. Firefox not implementing DRM wasn't going to change the outcome. OP just wanted more drama in the process. Literally.

jwz Jun 22, 2024

@tob *plonk*

Jack Coates 🐀Jun 22, 2024

@fl0_id @jwz compromising on principles means you don’t have them. Which means you’re left with no way to distinguish yourself from a crowded marketplace. Which means you’re competing with price. That works poorly when your competitor is a free loss-leader establishing a moat for a different, related business (not even looking at said competitor’s financial ties to Mozilla). So with principles and price off the table, how is it competitive at all? Mild technical differences, and branding. Might as well have folded up shop instead.

Rob Isaac Jun 23, 2024

@puercomal @fl0_id @jwz came here to type this; you did it better. Thank you.

DocRekd Jun 23, 2024

@puercomal @fl0_id @jwz well do you think that librewolf has any influence on web standards?

Besides this is the golden solution fallacy, if Mozilla isn't perfect then it's worthless. No matter that they are trying, no matter that even their ad network way more ethical than the competition, no matter all of the way they are improving the web, for the "activists" it would have never been enough. Any misstep, any compromise makes it no different than the multi billion spy corp.

Florian Idelberger Jun 23, 2024

@docRekd @puercomal @jwz yeah that is often my feeling. That said strong positions and demanding more is important. But I feel like some people are too much consequentialist, if you are not perfectly right in sth you are wrong. And at least for me, then I will be wrong most of the time, as I certainly don’t manage to care about all just causes that I think are important equally or even most of the time :/

Jack Coates 🐀Jun 23, 2024

@fl0_id @docRekd @jwz my issue is not with compromise — I have a long career in enterprise software, quite familiar with compromise thank you :)

DocRekd Jun 23, 2024

@fl0_id @jwz @puercomal then why are you taking issue with mozilla's compromises?

Jack Coates 🐀Jun 23, 2024

@docRekd @fl0_id @jwz i'm not speaking for anyone else. But 1 - late 90’s through the oughts Mozilla was not a rando non-profit, and did have a seat at the table. 2 am I to interpret their principles as principles, or a corporate mission statement? If it’s a principled non-profit org, then compromise isn't okay. If it's a corporation, then just dump the foundation thing and get in there to compete. With the compromise path, they failed at being a non-profit and failed at being a corporation, which leaves them as a finger puppet for the actual players.

DocRekd Jun 23, 2024

@fl0_id @jwz @puercomal
1 as big as mozilla ever was it still wasn't as strong as Big Content
2 Again perfect solution fallacy. You are ignoring all the good work Mozilla is doing instead focusing on their mistakes

ewhac Jun 22, 2024

@jwz Respectful dissent, sir.

Mozilla's *worst* decision was inflicting JavaScript upon the world, for the lamest reasons possible.

All anyone had to do was talk to victims of MS Word macro viruses to realize putting a scripting language into what is putatively a document, and then *running them by default*, was a monstrously dumb idea.

"But Micros~1 would have..." Yeah. And then Mozilla could point and say, "Word macro viruses at *Web scale?* Are they completely deranged?"

jwz Jun 22, 2024

@ewhac
1994 called, they want their BLINK tag back.

1992 called, they want their IMG tag back.

ewhac Jun 22, 2024

@jwz Well, now that you've brought up BLINK...

When I first saw that tag in the HTML spec, I was convinced it was put in as a sop to convince advertisers that they could migrate over from NAPLPS (used by the Prodigy online service), which defined a blink attribute, and which also got overused.

Also: The browser that shipped with BeOS -- NetPositive -- had an easter egg in it where, every 100th blink, the blinking text would be replaced with "Buy Now."

draNgNon Jun 22, 2024

@ewhac (off topic) omigersh I haven't seen a mention of BeOS in forever @jwz

Ángela Stella Matutina Jun 22, 2024

How else could the people we now call techbros have a Neuromancer future where the cyberspace can eat your brain?

We're living in a bad movie adapted from the Sprawl trilogy. You can't have the Turing Police without Turing completeness in the first place.

Thor A. Hopland Jun 22, 2024

This kind of reminds me when Netscape was enshitified and Mozilla was sort spun off as an answer to Netscape, when Internet Explorer first stepped on to the scene and people wore onions around their belt - which was the style at the time.

Anyho, some people are actively trying to implement Proton, or "Servo" as it's called, outside of Mozilla, and look who is funding it.

Get this sucker on to npm and we might get a competitor to Electron AND Firefox.

https://servo.org/

Servo aims to empower developers with a lightweight, high-performance alternative for embedding web technologies in applications.

Servo is a web rendering engine written in Rust, with WebGL and WebGPU support, and adaptable to desktop, mobile, and embedded applications.

Servo

Nicolás Alvarez Jun 22, 2024

@jwz I'm not convinced that needing a proprietary multipurpose plugin (Flash/Silverlight) is better than EME where the proprietary DRM stuff is contained to only do DRM in its tight sandbox. Though it's an interesting point that someone else would have patched in EME into a fork if Firefox had refused to...

Job Bautista Jun 23, 2024

@nicolas17 The difference is that NPAPI (which Flash and Silverlight use) has free plugins also using it (and there were plenty, like VLC's) and therefore is not antithetical to "Mozilla's mission". If Flash and Silverlight didn't exist in the NPAPI days then there will be others taking its role as proprietary DRM/video player/game engine anyway.

EME is purely for DRM.

EVHaste Jun 22, 2024

@jwz “kitten-meat deli” now lives in my mind as a permanent definition

Jack Coates 🐀Jun 22, 2024

@Haste @jwz yeah, that got me too

@jwz My impression of current state of DRM in the browser forks is they got it working, but it frequently breaks.