Mastodawn

jwz Jun 22, 2024

Mozilla's Original Sin.

Some will tell you that Mozilla's worst decision was to accept funding from Google, and that may have been the first domino, but I hold that implementing DRM is what doomed them, as it led to their culture of capitulation. It demonstrated that their decisions were the decisions of a *company shipping products*, not those of a non-profit devoted to preserving the open web.

Those are different things and are very much in conflict. [...]
https://jwz.org/b/ykVr

Mozilla's Original Sin

Some will tell you that Mozilla's worst decision was to accept funding from Google, and that may have been the first domino, but I hold that implementing DRM is what doomed them, as it led to their culture of capitulation. It demonstrated that their decisions were the decisions of a company shipping products, not those of a non-profit devoted to preserving the open web. Those are different ...

Florian Idelberger Jun 22, 2024

@jwz disagree. I know many ppl that would or could not use Firefox if they hadn’t and like this it’s a viable alternative. What do the gazilion Mozilla/netscape/firefox or chromium forks/alternatives do for the open web because they disable drm or replaced / removed other functionality? Not much.

jwz Jun 22, 2024

@fl0_id "But some people would not have used Firefox" is exactly the argument for market share over principles that got us into this mess.

Florian Idelberger

@jwz not ‘some people’ but basically no one would have used it. I don’t disagree that it (engaging with market realities) is also a problem, but that does not mean that the opposite would have been better

jwz Jun 22, 2024

@fl0_id Well, you're wrong. \/\/

Damian Yerrick Jun 23, 2024

@jwz @fl0_id Please help me understand how. Among people who use Windows, macOS, or desktop Linux, and subscribe to a subscription audio or video streaming service, what program would they have used alongside DRM-free Firefox to interact with said streaming service?

jwz Jun 23, 2024

@PinoBatch If the only thing you think a web browser is for is watching Netflix, maybe Internet Explorer is a better browser for you.

I haven't watched a DRM-encumbered file since probably 2009. And that wasn't in a browser, it was on a TiVo.

People who have jobs, for example, tend to use web browsers for things other than watching television.

But those kitten cold cuts sure are tasty!

Mister Moo 🐮Jun 23, 2024

@jwz @PinoBatch "I haven't watched a DRM-encumbered file since probably 2009."

Damian Yerrick Jun 23, 2024

@jwz Say people use web browsers for things other than watching television. What other program would they use for watching television on Windows, macOS, and desktop Linux?

Jay Jul 2, 2024

@jwz @PinoBatch certainly in all the government and finance sector contracts I've worked, watching the safety training was mandatory, and only supplied on DRM'd formats. The lock in is as complete across about 80% of work use cases as it is for mainstream media consumption.

varx/tech Jun 23, 2024

@PinoBatch @jwz @fl0_id DRM is more common now than when Mozilla first implemented it in Firefox. If Mozilla had not implemented it, that would have impeded the wider adoption of DRM.

Damian Yerrick Jun 23, 2024

@varx @jwz @fl0_id In practice, refusing to implement Encrypted Media Extensions would have required each streaming provider to publish a macOS native app and a Windows native app to view the service. This would have left users of desktop Linux unable to view what they were paying for.

If you have ideas for a business model for a subscription #streaming service that does not rely on digital restrictions management to deter casual stream ripping, I'm interested. For comparison, cable TV has been scrambling pay-per-view for decades and using Macrovision ACP to block VCR use.

varx/tech Jun 24, 2024

@PinoBatch DRM has never been an effective means of deterring stream ripping. And there are already subscription streaming services that use the ground-breaking model of "you pay us money, we send you video" without involving DRM.

PuercoPop Jun 22, 2024

@fl0_id @jwz there were and are a multiple people that would have used Firefox if they took a stance against DRM. Those that care about the open web. You know their _mission_. If you can't see how supporting drm means abandonding their mission then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. This isnt even a one step back two forward strategy. Its not like they implemented DRM as part of a larger plan to provide a non DRMed alternative

Florian Idelberger Jun 22, 2024

@PuercoPop @jwz I'm not saying there weren't, just overall not many. I don't like drm either, I just think that often you have to balance principles against usability, market forces and all kinds of other things. open web proponents and similar are very bad at this, and always think their priorities are most important.

Oblomov Jun 23, 2024

@fl0_id @PuercoPop @jwz a crucial point you're missing is that Mozilla refusing to add DRM support to Firefox would have struck a major blow to its effective standardization. (It would have also been a slap in the face of TBL caving in and selling his soul to the MAFIAA, but that's just a side benefit.)

BTW the same thing in reverse is now happening with JPEG XL adoption.

Andres Jun 23, 2024

@fl0_id @jwz See, we always knew that if Debian didn't include binary kernel drivers, no one would use it. And that's how it faded away into obscurity, and definitely didn't become the basis for multiple of the most popular linux distributions while also itself maintaining a healthy user base.. 🧐

gullevek ☢️ 🇯🇵Jun 23, 2024

@Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Isn’t Ubuntu so popular because it adds back all the stuff Debian didn’t add?

Wyatt (🏳️‍⚧️♀?)Jun 23, 2024

@gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz ubuntu is/was popular because it provides commercial support and containers and other garbage Shiny New Stuff that People Need™ that pollutes the basic philosophy of debian.
Ubuntu didn't include firmware for a very long time and was still the most popular choice.

Jeremiah C. Foster 🇸🇪🇺🇸🍥Jun 23, 2024

@wyatt8740 @gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz But Debian provides containers too. They’re really a technology based on the Linux kernel, not the OS.

Wyatt (🏳️‍⚧️♀?)Jun 23, 2024

@jeremiah_ @gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz sure, in that chroots are a container.
I meant flatpak/snap as a way to avoid being responsible

John Goerzen Jun 23, 2024

@gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz I've been using #Debian since at least 1996. I don't know what it's missing that is holding me back. Ubuntu is missing a lot, particularly in support for less-popular architectures.

Isn't Ubuntu popular with people that want the latest and greatest and don't like Debian's release cycle?

And that's fine, but completely orthogonal to this issue.

gullevek ☢️ 🇯🇵Jun 23, 2024

@jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Can’t really say. Also Debian user here since forever. But it just felt like Ubuntu has all this extra shiny that Debian doesn’t have.

Jeremiah C. Foster 🇸🇪🇺🇸🍥Jun 23, 2024

@gullevek @jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Not really. It’s ~80% Debian. The is rest proprietary drivers and technologies no one uses, e.g. snaps, mir, upstart, lxc. They provide commercial support which businesses love.

gullevek ☢️ 🇯🇵Jun 23, 2024

@jeremiah_ @jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Snaps are a pain in the ass

Arcticulate Jun 23, 2024

@jeremiah_ @gullevek @jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Ubuntu is responsible for getting Linux known among mainstream PC enthusiasts on a global scale. I say ”enthusiasts” (and informed ”regular” people) because they haven’t focused on every demographic, unlike a handful of companies’ distro attempts in the 1990s, like Lindows/Linspire, Caldera (aka SCO 🤦‍♂️), Mandrake/Mandriva, etc.

Jeremiah C. Foster 🇸🇪🇺🇸🍥Jun 23, 2024

@Arcticulate @gullevek @jgoerzen @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz Good point. I remember getting a Ubuntu CD in the post for free.

Semitones Jun 23, 2024

@jgoerzen @gullevek @Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz a when I was getting started, Ubuntu was billed as a Debian you didn't have to configure yourself. Kind of like a "Debian for the rest of us"

Dan Hugo Jun 23, 2024

@Andres4NY @fl0_id @jwz

Debian unstable since I worked at NSCP a long, long time ago… some other stuff mixed in, but sid and me the whole way.

Lutin Discret Jun 23, 2024

@jwz it's actually a problem of market share. Firefox had to implements DRM or it was doomed to death. If it had more market share, it could had refused to implements DRM and noone could have been against that. The long term strategy plan is to lose the DRM battle to win the war. When Firefox will be to 90% market-share, they will ditch DRM and everyone will STFU. Ditching DRM now is just becoming unusable and losing the war. Your plan is what will make Google win.