@FantasticalEconomics @rauder @turtle_green so what you're saying is that it's better to change from lead ammunition in the machine gun to lead-free ammunition than to just stop shouting your friends, family and neighbourhood with it?
#Capitalism is what's doing the damage. Tinkering with isn't going to stop it doing the damage; destroying the planet is intrinsic to its operation. We need to stop using it.
@simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
Simon, want to point out that it is something more basic that is destroying the planet than “capitalism.”
The Soviet Union, aka communists, were terrible for the environment. China has done & is doing terrible things to the environment.
They got rid of capitalism & still mess up the planet. So I think it makes sense to focus on solving other problems than getting distracted by simply attacking #capitalism & hoping everything will be green.
@rauder @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green Correct!
It's perfectly possible for people to do massive environmental damage under just about any economic system. Greed is perfectly possible with capitalism...and communism, and socialism, etc. It's perfectly possible for people under ANY of these to do environmental damage for their own enrichment. Capitalism doesn't demand it, or "perpetual growth", any more than any others do, despite common (and loud) claims to the contrary.
@turtle_green I think it's a very easy task to break down capitalism into it's basic elements.
People have a right to own their own property and labor and themselves.
People have a right to freely exchange what they own with others as they see fit.
Not much more to the basic idea than that.
@AlexanderKingsbury @rauder @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
>>Capitalism doesn't demand it, or "perpetual growth", any more than any others do, despite common (and loud) claims to the contrary.<<
What other systems demand perpetual growth?
Sure, greedy people can do damage, system or no system. But capitalism by it's very essence demands growth and consumes resources in order to generate more capital. It exploits and encourages existing greed. The premises that capitalism is founded on were formulated by men who were incentivized to protect their wealth and power and to justify their subjugation and exploitation of people around the world.
@RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
#capitalism does not ‘require’ growth, but it does incentivize it.
2 points:
1, most small capitalistic businesses are ‘lifestyle businesses’ they generate enough profit to support an individual or family. Barbers, bakers, pharmacists, doctors, etc.
They do NOT require endless growth, problematic resource extraction nor violence.
2, You can grow and improve life without excessive resource extraction …
@FantasticalEconomics @RD4Anarchy @simon_brooke @AlexanderKingsbury @rauder @turtle_green
Capitalism *structurally* compels capitalists to continuously maximize their differential profits—ie, beat the average—or else be out-competed into bankruptcy and replaced by a capitalist who will.
This is a key structural contradiction of capitalism. Capitalists who maximize their differential profits—ie, capture more revenue than their competitors—can reinvest that income in expanding their differential advantage, which in turn enables them to capture more revenue. Capitalists who don’t pursue this maximization will lose market share to those who will and eventually cease being capitalists.
@RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
2, You can grow and improve life without excessive resource extraction: examples: breed a better apple, improve the efficiency of a cow or solar panel, bake a better cookie.
If I make and sell a million board games, I used up a LOT of resources. If I sell a million computers games, the net additional resources required is almost zero.
@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
"greed isn't actually possible with #communism"
I'll have to add that to the collection.
"But yes, you CAN wreck the environment under any economic system, that's true. However, #capitalism requires it, which is unusual."
No, it's just false. Capitalism requires no such thing.
@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green The same thing it means with personal property. "a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (such as money) than is needed"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed
You can want way more of something than you need, even if neither you nor anyone else owns it.
@rauder @AlexanderKingsbury @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @simon_brooke
He doesn’t understand what common property is.
@simon_brooke @HeavenlyPossum @AlexanderKingsbury @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
I may be missing the point here, but to me it seems clear that in any larger group there will be a mix of attitudes and motivations: many will seek consensus, mutual benefit while some will be motivated by greed, envy, fear, apathy, etc.
#Capitalism can be powerful in aligning rewards with improved outputs. It can become destructive when not well managed/governed. It is not automatically good nor bad.
Capitalism is quite powerful at incentivizing the efficient pursuit of differential profits. This very occasionally and purely incidentally intersects with “improved outputs” in the sense of doing something useful for the broader community, but more often than not it hurts everyone involved.
@simon_brooke @AlexanderKingsbury @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
@HeavenlyPossum @rauder @simon_brooke @AlexanderKingsbury @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @breadandcircuses
When the planned economy model in Eastern Europe collapsed, many economists theorised that 'a dynamically efficient economy outperforms a statically efficient economy' - ie. even though the planned economies could be less wasteful in terms of allocating particular resources, organising production of known quantities, etc, this very design-thinking inhibited random experiment, niche-filling, speculative risk - which, even though it generally failed wastefully, actually led to enough innovation in western economies to out-perform the eastern model over time.
The question this raises in relation to #degrowth, or course, is how to balance the design-thinking and economic regulation required for social and environmental responsibility, with the creativity, energy and risk-taking of free enterprise.
@AlexanderKingsbury @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @simon_brooke @turtle_green
Nurit Bird-David has done a lot of research on demand-sharing societies, in which it’s socially obligatory to hand something over that someone else demands—ie, it would be as embarrassingly rude to reject a demand from someone for some item you possess as it would be in our society to slam a door in a stranger’s face rather than holding the door open.
In a society like that, theft is effectively non-existent, because the concept of accumulating more useful items than you can use is alien.
@AdrianRiskin @AlexanderKingsbury @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
This. The state, and property, are very closely coupled concepts. You really can't have one without the other.
@turtle_green @AlexanderKingsbury @AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @rauder
This is an important point: “greed” in the sense of an impulse to self-aggrandize exists in every single human being, alongside a competing impulse to altruistically cooperate. We’ll never be “rid of greed” as long as we’re human beings.
But we very much can be rid of greed as an organizing structure our society.
@HeavenlyPossum @turtle_green @AlexanderKingsbury @AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @rauder
You are talking about desire. To desire is to be human.
Greed is a pathological and sociopathic form of desire. To be greedy is to be an evil human.
At least that is what I understand those words to mean.
@rauder @AlexanderKingsbury @simon_brooke @turtle_green @FantasticalEconomics
He’s right—capitalist sabotage often takes the form of using intellectual property rights to block production by competitors. But that doesn’t mitigate capitalism’s perpetual drive to intensify exploitation of every conceivable resource.
Of course private-property capitalism requires eternal growth
Private accumulation requires financial institutions, borrowing and lending to mobilize the accumulated resources
Lending requires interest as the price of borrowing
Interest requires eternal growth
This is mathematically unavoidable unless interest rates converge to zero, which is a ridiculous idea
@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy
@magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy There are too many flasehoods here to address in one comment. Let's take the first "Private accumulation requires financial institutions, borrowing and lending to mobilize the accumulated resources"
Nope. I can get paid in cash and save it, if I so choose. Now, are banks beneficial? Yes, to most; that doesn't mean they're required.
@AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
>>Nope. I can get paid in cash and save it, if I so choose. Now, are banks beneficial? Yes, to most; that doesn't mean they're required.<<
lol, yeah capitalism is stashing your cash in a mattress 🙄
@RD4Anarchy @FantasticalEconomics @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @rauder @AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @turtle_green
Ah yes, the classic “deferred consumption” myth of capitalist savings and investment.
If by «save it» you mean stash the bills away, yes, of course that's an individual option, but you're not the only actor in the market. As long as there's a demand for borrowed funds and a supply of loanable funds, there will be a price for borrowing. Private-property capitalism requires financial markets to arise simply because of the incentive to lend and borrow.
@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy
@magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy "Private-property capitalism requires financial markets to arise simply because of the incentive to lend and borrow."
Heck of a leap from "there is an incentive for this to happen" to "there is a requirement for this to happen". To encourage something is not to force it.
@AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
>>Heck of a leap from "there is an incentive for this to happen" to "there is a requirement for this to happen". To encourage something is not to force it.<<
This is hilarious coming from someone who insists that greed is the common denominator of humanity: "but hey, it's ok to encourage it" 🤦♂️
@RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
My point is that “greed” is still a problem, even in “non-capitalist environments.”
I have seen bad decisions made, I.e. contrary to the mission of a non-profit org, by people who are greedy to increase their own power, authority, self-importance. No “profit” motive.
@RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
2/ I submit it is helpful to look at capitalism like fire.
Fire has been extraordinarly valuable in improving human capabilities and quality of life, yet it needs to@be carefully managed or it become wildly destructive. Capitalism is the same, it needs to be well managed to channel its power in productive ways.
@AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @RD4Anarchy @FantasticalEconomics @rauder @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @turtle_green
Capitalism has been perhaps the most horrifically awful disaster humans ever inflicted on each other.
@HeavenlyPossum @AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @RD4Anarchy @FantasticalEconomics @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @turtle_green
If we are going for single worst disaster inflicted by humans I would go with monarchy, or maybe haggis.
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @rauder @RD4Anarchy @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AlexanderKingsbury
It’s just the same few assertions over and over again without any nuance or evidence or even really effort
You neglect the social and political institutions required for upholding capitalism, which are coercive and violent by necessity.
Cue the “capitalism is just the economic system, the violent part is not capitalism”
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "You neglect the social and political institutions required for upholding capitalism, which are coercive and violent by necessity."
No, I understand that social and political institutions are violently enforced; that is not unique or inherent to capitalism.
"Cue the “capitalism is just the economic system, the violent part is not capitalism”"
Correct. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political one, not a legal one.
@AlexanderKingsbury Capitalism is unique in that it pretends to enforce an allegedly voluntary economic order by means of coercive social and political institutions
It delegitimizes itself
And no, not all social and political institutions are violently enforced. The ones required for capitalism definitely are
@AdrianRiskin @magitweeter @AlexanderKingsbury @RD4Anarchy
At least feudal lords were honest about their contempt for and violent exploitation of the peasantry.
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "Capitalism is unique in that it pretends to enforce an allegedly voluntary economic order by means of coercive social and political institutions"
It does nothing of the sort. Again, you confuse it for a legal or political system.
"And no, not all social and political institutions are violently enforced."
I never said "all".
@AlexanderKingsbury It's very easy to defend capitalism when you don't care about actually implementing capitalism
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "It's very easy to defend capitalism when you don't care about actually implementing capitalism"
I'd have to take your word on it. I do care about implementing capitalism. I care that the Open Insulin Foundation wants to bring safe, affordable insulin to everyone, but cronyism stops them. I want housing to be affordable, but cronyism stops it. I want people to be free in many more ways, but some people just hate the free market so much.
@AlexanderKingsbury Bad examples. None of that requires capitalism to be implemented
@AlexanderKingsbury I'm gonna post an analogy that my fellow anticapitalists such as
@AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @SallyStrange will no doubt find accurate and entertaining
You say “i have this amazing piece of software that will solve many economic problems”
We keep telling you your software can only run on a nuclear-powered computer that emits lethal amounts of radiation
You respond “that's a hardware problem, i'm talking about the software”
Simon Brooke
M.rauder
AKingsbury
RD
HeavenlyPossum
GeofCox
Adrian Riskin 
TheClothesHaveNoEmperor
Fabio G.