@simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green

Simon, want to point out that it is something more basic that is destroying the planet than “capitalism.”

The Soviet Union, aka communists, were terrible for the environment. China has done & is doing terrible things to the environment.

They got rid of capitalism & still mess up the planet. So I think it makes sense to focus on solving other problems than getting distracted by simply attacking #capitalism & hoping everything will be green.

@rauder @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green Correct!

It's perfectly possible for people to do massive environmental damage under just about any economic system. Greed is perfectly possible with capitalism...and communism, and socialism, etc. It's perfectly possible for people under ANY of these to do environmental damage for their own enrichment. Capitalism doesn't demand it, or "perpetual growth", any more than any others do, despite common (and loud) claims to the contrary.

@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green

"greed isn't actually possible with #communism"

I'll have to add that to the collection.

"But yes, you CAN wreck the environment under any economic system, that's true. However, #capitalism requires it, which is unusual."

No, it's just false. Capitalism requires no such thing.

@AlexanderKingsbury

Of course private-property capitalism requires eternal growth

Private accumulation requires financial institutions, borrowing and lending to mobilize the accumulated resources

Lending requires interest as the price of borrowing

Interest requires eternal growth

This is mathematically unavoidable unless interest rates converge to zero, which is a ridiculous idea

@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy

@magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy There are too many flasehoods here to address in one comment. Let's take the first "Private accumulation requires financial institutions, borrowing and lending to mobilize the accumulated resources"

Nope. I can get paid in cash and save it, if I so choose. Now, are banks beneficial? Yes, to most; that doesn't mean they're required.

@AlexanderKingsbury

If by «save it» you mean stash the bills away, yes, of course that's an individual option, but you're not the only actor in the market. As long as there's a demand for borrowed funds and a supply of loanable funds, there will be a price for borrowing. Private-property capitalism requires financial markets to arise simply because of the incentive to lend and borrow.

@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy

@magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy "Private-property capitalism requires financial markets to arise simply because of the incentive to lend and borrow."

Heck of a leap from "there is an incentive for this to happen" to "there is a requirement for this to happen". To encourage something is not to force it.

@AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum

>>Heck of a leap from "there is an incentive for this to happen" to "there is a requirement for this to happen". To encourage something is not to force it.<<

This is hilarious coming from someone who insists that greed is the common denominator of humanity: "but hey, it's ok to encourage it" 🤦‍♂️

@RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
My point is that “greed” is still a problem, even in “non-capitalist environments.”

I have seen bad decisions made, I.e. contrary to the mission of a non-profit org, by people who are greedy to increase their own power, authority, self-importance. No “profit” motive.

@RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
2/ I submit it is helpful to look at capitalism like fire.

Fire has been extraordinarly valuable in improving human capabilities and quality of life, yet it needs to@be carefully managed or it become wildly destructive. Capitalism is the same, it needs to be well managed to channel its power in productive ways.

@AlexanderKingsbury

You neglect the social and political institutions required for upholding capitalism, which are coercive and violent by necessity.

Cue the “capitalism is just the economic system, the violent part is not capitalism”

@AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum

@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "You neglect the social and political institutions required for upholding capitalism, which are coercive and violent by necessity."

No, I understand that social and political institutions are violently enforced; that is not unique or inherent to capitalism.

"Cue the “capitalism is just the economic system, the violent part is not capitalism”"

Correct. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political one, not a legal one.

@AlexanderKingsbury Capitalism is unique in that it pretends to enforce an allegedly voluntary economic order by means of coercive social and political institutions

It delegitimizes itself

And no, not all social and political institutions are violently enforced. The ones required for capitalism definitely are

@AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum

@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "Capitalism is unique in that it pretends to enforce an allegedly voluntary economic order by means of coercive social and political institutions"

It does nothing of the sort. Again, you confuse it for a legal or political system.

"And no, not all social and political institutions are violently enforced."

I never said "all".

@AlexanderKingsbury It's very easy to defend capitalism when you don't care about actually implementing capitalism

@AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum

@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "It's very easy to defend capitalism when you don't care about actually implementing capitalism"

I'd have to take your word on it. I do care about implementing capitalism. I care that the Open Insulin Foundation wants to bring safe, affordable insulin to everyone, but cronyism stops them. I want housing to be affordable, but cronyism stops it. I want people to be free in many more ways, but some people just hate the free market so much.