@FantasticalEconomics @rauder @turtle_green so what you're saying is that it's better to change from lead ammunition in the machine gun to lead-free ammunition than to just stop shouting your friends, family and neighbourhood with it?
#Capitalism is what's doing the damage. Tinkering with isn't going to stop it doing the damage; destroying the planet is intrinsic to its operation. We need to stop using it.
@simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
Simon, want to point out that it is something more basic that is destroying the planet than “capitalism.”
The Soviet Union, aka communists, were terrible for the environment. China has done & is doing terrible things to the environment.
They got rid of capitalism & still mess up the planet. So I think it makes sense to focus on solving other problems than getting distracted by simply attacking #capitalism & hoping everything will be green.
@rauder @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green Correct!
It's perfectly possible for people to do massive environmental damage under just about any economic system. Greed is perfectly possible with capitalism...and communism, and socialism, etc. It's perfectly possible for people under ANY of these to do environmental damage for their own enrichment. Capitalism doesn't demand it, or "perpetual growth", any more than any others do, despite common (and loud) claims to the contrary.
@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
"greed isn't actually possible with #communism"
I'll have to add that to the collection.
"But yes, you CAN wreck the environment under any economic system, that's true. However, #capitalism requires it, which is unusual."
No, it's just false. Capitalism requires no such thing.
Of course private-property capitalism requires eternal growth
Private accumulation requires financial institutions, borrowing and lending to mobilize the accumulated resources
Lending requires interest as the price of borrowing
Interest requires eternal growth
This is mathematically unavoidable unless interest rates converge to zero, which is a ridiculous idea
@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy
@magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy There are too many flasehoods here to address in one comment. Let's take the first "Private accumulation requires financial institutions, borrowing and lending to mobilize the accumulated resources"
Nope. I can get paid in cash and save it, if I so choose. Now, are banks beneficial? Yes, to most; that doesn't mean they're required.
@AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
>>Nope. I can get paid in cash and save it, if I so choose. Now, are banks beneficial? Yes, to most; that doesn't mean they're required.<<
lol, yeah capitalism is stashing your cash in a mattress 🙄
@RD4Anarchy @FantasticalEconomics @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @rauder @AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @turtle_green
Ah yes, the classic “deferred consumption” myth of capitalist savings and investment.
If by «save it» you mean stash the bills away, yes, of course that's an individual option, but you're not the only actor in the market. As long as there's a demand for borrowed funds and a supply of loanable funds, there will be a price for borrowing. Private-property capitalism requires financial markets to arise simply because of the incentive to lend and borrow.
@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy
@magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy "Private-property capitalism requires financial markets to arise simply because of the incentive to lend and borrow."
Heck of a leap from "there is an incentive for this to happen" to "there is a requirement for this to happen". To encourage something is not to force it.
@AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
>>Heck of a leap from "there is an incentive for this to happen" to "there is a requirement for this to happen". To encourage something is not to force it.<<
This is hilarious coming from someone who insists that greed is the common denominator of humanity: "but hey, it's ok to encourage it" 🤦♂️
@RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
My point is that “greed” is still a problem, even in “non-capitalist environments.”
I have seen bad decisions made, I.e. contrary to the mission of a non-profit org, by people who are greedy to increase their own power, authority, self-importance. No “profit” motive.
@RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
2/ I submit it is helpful to look at capitalism like fire.
Fire has been extraordinarly valuable in improving human capabilities and quality of life, yet it needs to@be carefully managed or it become wildly destructive. Capitalism is the same, it needs to be well managed to channel its power in productive ways.
@AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @RD4Anarchy @FantasticalEconomics @rauder @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @turtle_green
Capitalism has been perhaps the most horrifically awful disaster humans ever inflicted on each other.
@HeavenlyPossum @AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @RD4Anarchy @FantasticalEconomics @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @turtle_green
If we are going for single worst disaster inflicted by humans I would go with monarchy, or maybe haggis.
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @rauder @RD4Anarchy @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @AlexanderKingsbury
It’s just the same few assertions over and over again without any nuance or evidence or even really effort
You neglect the social and political institutions required for upholding capitalism, which are coercive and violent by necessity.
Cue the “capitalism is just the economic system, the violent part is not capitalism”
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "You neglect the social and political institutions required for upholding capitalism, which are coercive and violent by necessity."
No, I understand that social and political institutions are violently enforced; that is not unique or inherent to capitalism.
"Cue the “capitalism is just the economic system, the violent part is not capitalism”"
Correct. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political one, not a legal one.
@AlexanderKingsbury Capitalism is unique in that it pretends to enforce an allegedly voluntary economic order by means of coercive social and political institutions
It delegitimizes itself
And no, not all social and political institutions are violently enforced. The ones required for capitalism definitely are
@AdrianRiskin @magitweeter @AlexanderKingsbury @RD4Anarchy
At least feudal lords were honest about their contempt for and violent exploitation of the peasantry.
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "Capitalism is unique in that it pretends to enforce an allegedly voluntary economic order by means of coercive social and political institutions"
It does nothing of the sort. Again, you confuse it for a legal or political system.
"And no, not all social and political institutions are violently enforced."
I never said "all".
@AlexanderKingsbury It's very easy to defend capitalism when you don't care about actually implementing capitalism
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "It's very easy to defend capitalism when you don't care about actually implementing capitalism"
I'd have to take your word on it. I do care about implementing capitalism. I care that the Open Insulin Foundation wants to bring safe, affordable insulin to everyone, but cronyism stops them. I want housing to be affordable, but cronyism stops it. I want people to be free in many more ways, but some people just hate the free market so much.
@AlexanderKingsbury Bad examples. None of that requires capitalism to be implemented
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "It's very easy to defend capitalism when you don't care about actually implementing capitalism"
All of that would be implemented, now, efficiently and effectively...IF people wouldn't stand in the way of free market capitalism.
@AlexanderKingsbury Wishing for capitalism to come into being is not the same thing as implementing capitalism
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "Wishing for capitalism to come into being is not the same thing as implementing capitalism"
I agree.
@AlexanderKingsbury And all you're doing is declare that you'd wish for capitalism to come into being
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum "And all you're doing is declare that you'd wish for capitalism to come into being"
I understand that you think that.
@AlexanderKingsbury I'm gonna post an analogy that my fellow anticapitalists such as
@AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @SallyStrange will no doubt find accurate and entertaining
You say “i have this amazing piece of software that will solve many economic problems”
We keep telling you your software can only run on a nuclear-powered computer that emits lethal amounts of radiation
You respond “that's a hardware problem, i'm talking about the software”
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @SallyStrange "And accurate"
Fine. I'd submit to you that you can A. plug the computer into a different power source, or B. accept and understand that all nuclear reactors that produce usable amounts of power, including the sun, emit lethal radiation; fortunately, some humans have learned that with the principles of time, distance, and shielding, that problem can be mitigated.
@AlexanderKingsbury A. yeah, but then the software doesn't run; B. yeah, but then you can't actually use the computer
@magitweeter @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @SallyStrange "A. yeah, but then the software doesn't run; B. yeah, but then you can't actually use the computer"
Then your analogy needs a lot of work. Computers don't care where their electricity comes from, so long as the voltage, frequency, current capacity, etc. are right, and you can indeed use electricity from properly shielded reactors. Many people do.
"Accurate".
@AlexanderKingsbury «so long as the voltage, frequency, current capacity, etc. are right» Yes, and this computer needs to be sitting immediately next to the reactor, otherwise the parameters are wrong and it doesn't even boot
@AlexanderKingsbury @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @HeavenlyPossum
FYI: No “voluntary interactions” are not required for capitalism. This is where abuses of monopoly and oligopoly are problematic: You must buy water, etc and if there is only 1 provider with abusive market control, you must pay the prices they set.
Key reason why we need regulated markets. (Per Adam Smith, who literally wrote the book.)
@AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @HeavenlyPossum
I think part of the contention here is you are only seeing #capitalism as something like large, abusive corps.
It is also veterinarians, accountants, bakers, jewelers, shop keepers, software authors, etc. They are (~)all part of the capitalist system, see themselves as capitalists, and feel threatened when you say you want to abolish capitalism/their way of life.
@RD4Anarchy @turtle_green @AdrianRiskin @FantasticalEconomics @simon_brooke @rauder @magitweeter @AlexanderKingsbury
There’s something deeply silly about recognizing the enormous benefit that capitalists receive from the state while believing that capitalists would not fight to preserve or resurrect the state to retain its benefits.
@AlexanderKingsbury What's the problem with government aid? Having the government enforce your property rights is government aid as much as whatever the govenrment does to aid any corporation
If all productive property came into the ownership of a single monopoly, upholding property rights would be the most cronyist policy of them all
@rauder @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @HeavenlyPossum
@AdrianRiskin @AlexanderKingsbury @turtle_green @rauder @simon_brooke @RD4Anarchy @magitweeter @FantasticalEconomics
It’s true that capitalists have done an incredible job at convincing people whom capitalists exploit and oppress that capitalism is great.
@HeavenlyPossum @AdrianRiskin @AlexanderKingsbury @turtle_green @simon_brooke @RD4Anarchy @magitweeter @FantasticalEconomics
Again, what is your better replacement for (well-regulated) #capitalism ?
And does it include dealing with Saudi monarchy, Russian and China autocracies, etc, or is it just eliminating the democracies?
(And I agree that right now things are far too out of balance in favor of the hyper-wealthy.)
@rauder @HeavenlyPossum @turtle_green @simon_brooke @RD4Anarchy @magitweeter @FantasticalEconomics
You seem to be under the impression that Saudi Arabia, Russia, and China aren't capitalist somehow. If the means of production, which mostly means productive land, aren't accessible to everyone and the people who control access use that control to exploit workers the economy is capitalist, regardless of what the ruling parties call themselves.
Also, when something's as bad as Capitalism it's really not necessary to propose alternatives before criticizing it. Capitalism runs on violence and blood. It just has to stop.
@AlexanderKingsbury @RD4Anarchy @AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @turtle_green @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @magitweeter
> “Again, what is your better replacement for (well-regulated) #capitalism ?”
“Well-regulated capitalism” is an oxymoron like “well-regulated slavery,” and one doesn’t really need to provide an alternative to an atrocity to oppose that atrocity. But my general hope for what should come after capitalism is *freedom.* I have confidence that free people tend to work things out for themselves.
> “And does it include dealing with…”
“The democracies” is question begging, but yes? Why would you ask this?
@HeavenlyPossum @AlexanderKingsbury @AdrianRiskin @simon_brooke @turtle_green @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @magitweeter
If someone really understands capitalism they don't ask this question.
“(well-regulated) capitalism” is not something that needs replacement because it's not something that exists or has ever existed
@HeavenlyPossum @AdrianRiskin @AlexanderKingsbury @turtle_green @simon_brooke @RD4Anarchy @FantasticalEconomics
«They are (~)all part of the capitalist system» True, but only because the capitalist system is imposed on everyone
«see themselves as capitalists» That would be very obviously incorrect, and fixing that misperception would be part of the solution
Nothing about any of those occupations requires capitalism in any sense
@AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @HeavenlyPossum
The current thing, would you call it a well-managed industrial fire, or would you call it a destructive wildfire?
@magitweeter @RD4Anarchy @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
Fabio,
Great question - I agree that the ultra wealthy have gotten loose, & are running dangerously wild.
They have removed too many controls and checks on their power, and are using their extreme wealth and corruption to further bend things to their benefit.
The authoritarian fascists & the corrupt, parasitic hyper-wealthy are reinforcing & merging.
Seems to me corralling them again is faster, better than dismembering society.
Then why are you wasting your time defending the wildfire before those who would want the fire to be put out?
What you should be doing is convincing your fellow fans of capitalism that capitalism needs to be controlled
and then actually implementing those controls
do that, and the opponents of capitalism will accept your view in a snap
@magitweeter @RD4Anarchy @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
I am and have been working to make things better. I got into this conversation when people were saying it is impossible to improve things without first eliminating #capitalism.
And I asked “what is your better alternative to capitalism?”
@magitweeter @RD4Anarchy @AdrianRiskin @HeavenlyPossum
One example, I was involved in getting the Green Party as an official party on the California ballot to run candidates, etc. They promptly imploded and now seem to be run by Putinists.
Now I look for groups that can govern/accomplish something. In the U.S. the best option to stop the fascists is still the Democrats.
Yet I remain curious about better models for the system that can actually get something done.
@rauder @magitweeter @RD4Anarchy @AdrianRiskin
I would propose that this framing—the Democrats vs the Republicans—is part of the problem.
It’s like turning to von Papen to stop Hitler—they’re ultimately on the same side, and part of the same systemic problem.
@rauder The alternative to capitalism is economic democracy
End capitalism, and economic democracy follows
@turtle_green @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @rauder @magitweeter
There is a distinction between greed as a universal human impulse (alongside selfless altruism) and greed as a compulsory organizing principle of society.
@AdrianRiskin @rauder @RD4Anarchy @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @HeavenlyPossum
they are an absolute fraud just like their religions ...
@AdrianRiskin @RD4Anarchy @magitweeter @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @HeavenlyPossum
Adrian,
Non-profits are a tool for facilitating non-profit maximizing activities. Many/most are things like food banks, youth organization, community theatres, etc.
It is also true that some corrupt, parasitic wealthy folks are abusing the non-profit rules for the personal benefit.
Both are true.
Yet good, well-managed non-profit orgs are a benefit in whatever society you are proposing.
Simon Brooke
M.rauder
AKingsbury
Fabio G.
RD
HeavenlyPossum
Adrian Riskin 
dibi58