@FantasticalEconomics @rauder @turtle_green so what you're saying is that it's better to change from lead ammunition in the machine gun to lead-free ammunition than to just stop shouting your friends, family and neighbourhood with it?
#Capitalism is what's doing the damage. Tinkering with isn't going to stop it doing the damage; destroying the planet is intrinsic to its operation. We need to stop using it.
@simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
Simon, want to point out that it is something more basic that is destroying the planet than “capitalism.”
The Soviet Union, aka communists, were terrible for the environment. China has done & is doing terrible things to the environment.
They got rid of capitalism & still mess up the planet. So I think it makes sense to focus on solving other problems than getting distracted by simply attacking #capitalism & hoping everything will be green.
@rauder @simon_brooke @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green Correct!
It's perfectly possible for people to do massive environmental damage under just about any economic system. Greed is perfectly possible with capitalism...and communism, and socialism, etc. It's perfectly possible for people under ANY of these to do environmental damage for their own enrichment. Capitalism doesn't demand it, or "perpetual growth", any more than any others do, despite common (and loud) claims to the contrary.
@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
"greed isn't actually possible with #communism"
I'll have to add that to the collection.
"But yes, you CAN wreck the environment under any economic system, that's true. However, #capitalism requires it, which is unusual."
No, it's just false. Capitalism requires no such thing.
@simon_brooke @rauder @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green The same thing it means with personal property. "a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (such as money) than is needed"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed
You can want way more of something than you need, even if neither you nor anyone else owns it.
@rauder @AlexanderKingsbury @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @simon_brooke
He doesn’t understand what common property is.
@simon_brooke @HeavenlyPossum @AlexanderKingsbury @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
I may be missing the point here, but to me it seems clear that in any larger group there will be a mix of attitudes and motivations: many will seek consensus, mutual benefit while some will be motivated by greed, envy, fear, apathy, etc.
#Capitalism can be powerful in aligning rewards with improved outputs. It can become destructive when not well managed/governed. It is not automatically good nor bad.
Capitalism is quite powerful at incentivizing the efficient pursuit of differential profits. This very occasionally and purely incidentally intersects with “improved outputs” in the sense of doing something useful for the broader community, but more often than not it hurts everyone involved.
@simon_brooke @AlexanderKingsbury @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green
@HeavenlyPossum @rauder @simon_brooke @AlexanderKingsbury @FantasticalEconomics @turtle_green @breadandcircuses
When the planned economy model in Eastern Europe collapsed, many economists theorised that 'a dynamically efficient economy outperforms a statically efficient economy' - ie. even though the planned economies could be less wasteful in terms of allocating particular resources, organising production of known quantities, etc, this very design-thinking inhibited random experiment, niche-filling, speculative risk - which, even though it generally failed wastefully, actually led to enough innovation in western economies to out-perform the eastern model over time.
The question this raises in relation to #degrowth, or course, is how to balance the design-thinking and economic regulation required for social and environmental responsibility, with the creativity, energy and risk-taking of free enterprise.
Simon Brooke
M.rauder
AKingsbury
HeavenlyPossum
GeofCox