Eniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)Hey artists/devs/authors/other creatives! Self promote all you want (so long as your instance allows it I guess) and if anyone comes into your mentions talking about how "oh we don't do that here, we value *dialogue* over *advertising*" just ignore em! Most of us want to see the cool stuff you made because making stuff and sharing it is a valuable part of community building too
Sorry for posting about this a lot but this is a hill I am absolutely willing to die on. Nobody should be forced to choose between staying on a site full of nazis and being shamed for sharing the cool shit they made, even if the sharing is intended to make money. Everyone deserves to eat
And if you only wanna have stimulating discussions and not be marketed towards then I invite you to use one of the many tools such as disabling boosts, unfollowing, muting, or blocking which are at your disposal in order to craft the experience you want on the fediverse. Just not pressuring other people into doing things your way
A few people replied overnight with some flavor of "well don't be surprised if you get blocked then!" and dude, if the alternative to you coming into my mentions to be a cop about me trying to keep myself and my people fed is you blocking me you're just doing me a favor
Sciencetastic@eniko What strange people...
Alexander The 1st@eniko #FirstThought: "Thanks for not making my follower count reach 4K overnight then!"
Ivan Vučica 🕳️@eniko I don’t get why people would be annoyed at small creators that they can follow or not follow advertising their stuff; on larger sites it’s bigger corporations inundating the timeline “algorithmically” with uninteresting nonsense. Here, one can follow or not follow a creator — I’m surprised that people find this controversial? :/
Advertising as a small creator/business is part of a healthy community outreach, I think.
Advertising as a small creator/business is part of a healthy community outreach, I think.
Karyl 
@eniko And filtering! I know you already know, just wanted to add it for any who don't. With filtering it should be mostly possible to follow people and still avoid any topic you'd rather not see in your feed :)
Adrien Dittrick@eniko honestly what I'm mostly afraid of in most social media platform is throwing my content into a hole to be seen but where other users are also throwing their content to be seen and no one actually wants to see other people's content. FInding an audience is hard. But I wouldn't criticize others for trying it (or anyone, really)
Kells Is Making Calico@eniko I've been seeing this around but have no idea who are the people saying we can't self promo haha. Seems weird to me, what else would a person post but things about themselves?
GlaireDaggers@eniko Frankly I would *love* to be able to exist in a system where the cool things I share are just never intended to make any money BUT ALAS....
@glairedaggers yeah it sucks but rent payments are a thing
alisonborealis@eniko seriously. If coders and scientists can post their code and research, creatives can post their art and products.
Frank Vehafric@eniko I admit to being one of the initial folks being annoyed at people asking for follows. I'll try to be aware of people legitimately trying to earn a living vs people just seeming to want the attention.
Oblomov@fvehafric @eniko I think how things are done makes the difference for some. Personally, I generally don't follow nor boost (nor police the tone of, FWIW) people explicitly asking for follows or boosts, but I'll gladly follow and/or boost artists that I like, even when they are advertising shop. I understand and support creatives' need and wish to live off their creativity, but I don't appreciate being good what to do.
@oblomov @fvehafric a lot of gamedevs basically only get 1 shot at announcing projects they've worked on for literal years are out and will ask for boosts. Seems a bit spiteful to deliberately withhold them in my view
@eniko @fvehafric
it's not really a matter of spite,but annoyance. Let me flip the matter around: does asking for boost actually result in more boosts, compared to having built a relationship with your followers?
The obsessive use of the explicit requests for “like, share and subscribe” on YouTube and the like has become so bad that it's now its own meme. In my impression it's at best just noise that actually detracts from the signal (content release, sale etc).
it's not really a matter of spite,but annoyance. Let me flip the matter around: does asking for boost actually result in more boosts, compared to having built a relationship with your followers?
The obsessive use of the explicit requests for “like, share and subscribe” on YouTube and the like has become so bad that it's now its own meme. In my impression it's at best just noise that actually detracts from the signal (content release, sale etc).
@oblomov @fvehafric yes, asking for boosts provably increases engagement. It's called a "call to action" and omitting is not somehow more noble, it simply results in less people doing the thing. Because people often just don't think of doing the thing unless prompted, even if they would otherwise be happy to do the thing
@eniko @fvehafric
At least on me it has the opposite effect, and I doubt I'm the only one on which it has this effect. I also wonder how much that actually depends on the nature of the platform (e.g. where algorithmic visibility is controlled by interactions vs where it's not).
That being said, especially here where the timelines are chronological, I think a combination of multiple posts (maybe some with boosting requests, and others without) + self-boosts would be the best strategy.
At least on me it has the opposite effect, and I doubt I'm the only one on which it has this effect. I also wonder how much that actually depends on the nature of the platform (e.g. where algorithmic visibility is controlled by interactions vs where it's not).
That being said, especially here where the timelines are chronological, I think a combination of multiple posts (maybe some with boosting requests, and others without) + self-boosts would be the best strategy.
@oblomov @fvehafric it's not about the algorithm, it's just a property of basic human communication as documented by academic research
KickBack@oblomov @eniko @fvehafric Asking this from gamedevs, who generally do this when they release games, which happens as often as once per decade to twice per year seems weird.
@kickback
I'm sorry, “weird” in what sense?
@oblomov @eniko @fvehafric
The people you are asking to take "a stand" here, are ones that contribute very little to this annoyance and have a lot more to lose.
The people you are asking to take "a stand" here, are ones that contribute very little to this annoyance and have a lot more to lose.
@kickback
I'm sorry, I'm completely lost. I'm not asking anyone to “take a stand”.
@oblomov @eniko @fvehafric Okay, what are you trying to accomplish by withholding boosts / follows (to posts / people that would you would otherwise boost / follow if they were sans "nag")?
I'm not trying to accomplish anything. I follow people whose content I find interesting, not because they ask for follows. I boost posts because they are posts I would have liked to see in my timeline if I hadn't, not because they ask for boosts. And personally I find requests for boosts and follows deterring. I'm not trying to tell people what to do, but I think it's fair to let them know, in the context of this conversation, what my behavior is.
@kickback
I have never done any “tone policing” about boost requests (i.e. commented on a boost-requesting post saying they shouldn't boost-request). I do however believe this particular thread to be one where this kind of conversation can be had (being a “meta”).
("good" is supposed to be "told΅, but I think that was clear from context)
RetroeyDoofery 
@eniko Plus, there are no crypto/NFT shill-bots here, so it's definitely a win-win!
Notewell Lyons@eniko *shouting* EVERYONE DESERVES TO EAT!!
BroWren@eniko Half the reason I follow so many indie devs and artists is *because* I want to buy your stuff :P
LINDLEY HAS MOVED
Sarah@eniko I do worry about long threads making people unfollow tbh
@gaycodegal same but I'm trying to not let it bother me. Don't wanna change for people who wouldn't like the real me anyway
Esurnir@gaycodegal @eniko if you follow Eniko and hate long thread. I mean why the heck you followed her for ?
0x72@eniko I don't get it. Why would one object artists' self promotion? Did you experienced it often?
Gen X-Wing@eniko Bots that just spews links with “buy me!”. No thank you.
Creative that says “look at what I did (and you can buy it)” and then interacts, comments, answer questions. Yes please.
The art must flow!
ngoomie is moving!@eniko i LOVE "advertising" from small people, talking about cool projects they're making. i would be "advertised" to by someone making a cool indie game 1000 times over before i would ever be advertised by a big brand
+>e@eniko
if people comes out of the blue saying "we don't do that here" report them!
That behavior may not be welcome by the local community.
In case that you get warned by mods/admins about that subject (due to strict local rules), ask them to point you to another instance to migrate to (then they may reconsider their rules).
alcinnz@eniko I self-promote, and I love following others who do likewise!
Doug Sheppard@eniko The people who are "only doing promotion, not engaging with me" exist for the duration of exactly two mouse clicks.
@sirilyan that's a lot better than being a cop in people's mentions so go for it I guess
Tom 
@eniko Seems to me like Mastodon should definitely be a place where people get to toot their own horn...
In fact I would really expect there to be a hashtag for this! I see one post in #TootYourOwnHorn why not start using that?
I think I'll start using that myself and will start following it. It also provides a nice phrase to filter out for people who don't want to see it, I think.
Computeforloot 
@eniko nailed it
7sleepersmusic@eniko “We don’t do that here”? Really? Have they ever logged on during #BandcampFriday? 🤣
Joel de Bruijn@eniko I sometimes think peoples aversion about adtech (rightfully so) gets mixed up by authentic and organic exposure.
But thats maybe to benefit of the doubt. 😃
But thats maybe to benefit of the doubt. 😃
@eniko
Maybe even pure commercial brands should set up their own instances to host their respective accounts for general webcare, products, conferences and news etc
Fans can follow according their liking.
I on the other hand can block them according my not - liking.
slowtiger@eniko Or just answer with "You can always start a dialogue by praising my work."
ActiveCultures@eniko I think the main point for me is - do it in the context of being a well-rounded person. It’s like being at a cocktail party. If all someone is doing is pitching their own work, you excuse yourself and go for a drink. If someone is an engaging questioner, listener, and conversationalist, of course I’ll be curious to learn more about their art or other work too.
ᛗ🦊ᛟErvoᛟ🦊ᛗ 
@eniko woah! There's a whole instance for indie devs
I wanted to create a Mastodon for our company but I couldn't decide on an instance, I think I already have it clear
I wanted to create a Mastodon for our company but I couldn't decide on an instance, I think I already have it clear
@eniko seems like registrations are closed on this instance for now 
Do you know if can I contact a moderator to request an invitation link or something?
Do you know if can I contact a moderator to request an invitation link or something?
@eniko Monetizing art is not the same as sharing. Self promotion is not dialogue. Romanticized, monolithic approaches to any segment of society is hardly ever productive.
@plunkettk if i had to engage everyone i sold a copy of my games to in dialogue i would be dead now.
Donna Dechen Birdwell@eniko I have published 7 books, but I do not intend to "promote" them here, though I may talk about them. This is where people can come to discover what the author is really like, what she cares about. This is where I find other people who care about the same things I care about. Maybe they'll be curious enough to buy a book. Maybe not.
@donnadechen my yearly income from the creative job i work at above fulltime hours is less than federal minimum wage so you'll have to excuse me if i shill my products so that i can continue to feed me and mine
Dimestorehalo
Cassandrich@eniko Don't just ignore, block so they can't try to continue making trouble for you.