Mastodawn

stepwinder Nov 18, 2022

I will give big points to the first news organization, big or small, that:
* Sets up an instance for its newsroom,
* Sets up an instance for the community it serves,
* Enables rel=me for staff,
* Creates a boost-on-Mastodon sharing function,
* Enhances that function so headlines/images (with alt-text) appear in the toot,
* Covers the Fediverse as more than a geeky curiosity or alt-Twitter,
* Listens to and joins in the conversation here.

Coach Pāṇini ®Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis I think @sdut is one candidate

Jeff Jarvis Nov 17, 2022

@paninid That link didn't open for me.

leork Nov 17, 2022

@paninid @jeffjarvis
I think if they don't share a local Mastodon server you need both @'s.
Not positive, but im thinking that's how it works.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis Having news orgs have their own instances for their staff sounds good, but it may not be great for journalists. On Twitter, a journalist can develop a following that they take with them when they move employers. But someone who develops a following on their employer's mastodon instance loses it when they leave (unless they allow them to migrate the account elsewhere).

Simeon Nedkov Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis Mastodon has “move account” functionality baked in. A couple of days ago I moved to a new instance. Or do you mean something else (on top of that)?

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@simeon @jeffjarvis It requires your instance to support it. Will private orgs allow it? Also, it deletes the post history.

Simeon Nedkov Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis Right. I think they should but I also see that you leave your org's email address behing when you leave.

Another approach would be to link/affiliatie people to orgs through Mastodon’s verification mechanism and severe the link when they move away from organisation. Bonus (?): there is no need for an org instance.

@mattblaze @simeon @jeffjarvis Moving doesn't "delete" post history. The posts still exist at the original instance where they were posted unless the admin does surgery to remove them.

This is because posts are referred to by URL, including the domain name, and all attachments are hosted by that domain's instance. Moving posts across instances would break those linkages and cannot bring thread replies with them.

Make your first post "To see older posts, browse @olduser@oldinstance" if it's that important.

Simeon Nedkov Nov 17, 2022

@ToddVierling Thanks for explainer. I was wondering why posts can’t be moved but didn’t have the time to look it up yet.

Baruch Katz Nov 17, 2022

@ToddVierling If an admin of one server blocks your account, is there a way to recover your post history when you have moved to a different account to a different server?

@baruch You can export a copy of your data before moving (and you should), but there's not a lot you can do if malicious admin actions are involved.

That's not really any different from how major social media works. If your account gets suspended on the Musksite, and your appeal to the nebulous review team is denied, you're out of luck.

In short: You should know your instance admin(s) a little because you are putting trust in them.

Baruch Katz Nov 17, 2022

@ToddVierling So moving is just a helpful redirect for your audience. It doesn’t let you take your account with you if you are kicked out. Thanks for the explanation.

@ToddVierling @mattblaze @simeon @jeffjarvis

Very good tips! Thanks

lightcutscode (she/her) 🇨🇦Nov 17, 2022

We can just delete our own posts ourselves, though, right? That does delete them from the server? (i.e., delete everything ourselves from the old server once we move?)

What do you recommend for doing the import/export of our follower/following network?

Nemo_bis 🌈Nov 17, 2022

@ToddVierling "Moving posts across instances would break those linkages"

That's entirely avoidable though. Links already go through aliases in #Mastodon.
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/19902#issuecomment-1310982282

@mattblaze @simeon @jeffjarvis

Support post migration for already-known posts and media · Issue #19902 · mastodon/mastodon

Pitch When migrating an account to a new instance, the user should have the possibility to also migrate their own posts with their media. Because this presents all sorts of issues, such a feature s...

GitHub

James Hart Nov 18, 2022

@nemobis @ToddVierling

I think a far bigger issue with importing historic posts is that it enables people to make it look like they posted anything they like, at any arbitrary time in the past.

In the fediverse, you can't trust that other servers are being honest about history.

robert aleksic Nov 17, 2022

@ToddVierling why, when changing instances, are all post references not changed to new ones? I realy can't see technical reason for this. As of atachments, why servers can't repost them in the process od changing instances?

@mattblaze @simeon @ToddVierling @jeffjarvis #mastodontips - thread on moving accounts to different servers & some backend explanation

atomicangel Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @simeon @jeffjarvis

I was just discussing this a bit ago, it doesn't fully delete the post history, in just stays with the old instance. You can put a referring link to the old instance if necessary.

On the instance I live, I can also export my old posts as a JSON file.

Jeff Jarvis Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze That is precisely the value of the Fediverse: You can take your identity and your social graph with you when you leave.

Michael Veale Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis @mattblaze Unless they lock you out of your account... or take control of it and migrate it to their new correspondent for that topic.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis Only if your instance allows it. Will they? Moving also effectively erases the post history.

Anyone establishing a presence on their employer's instance better be clear up front about the rules here.

Jeff Jarvis Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze If a news organization starts an instance that doesn't allow interoperability, no one should join and everyone should mock them.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis It can interoperate just fine. It just need not send the migrate messages.

Again, maybe norms will develop in the industry. Or maybe they won't. But it would be foolish to assume it will just work out the way you hope it will.

Jeff Jarvis Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze A fella can wish.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis Explicit agreements >> thoughts and prayers.

Don Marti Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis Just from a practical labor/management POV, what happens when reporters go on strike? Is it crossing the picket line to use an employer-owned instance? (Twitter was a win for all kinds of content labor because it's a byline namespace independent of employment relationships)

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@dmarti @jeffjarvis Yeah. People are being incredibly starry-eyed about this (and lots of other things about the fediverse). The devil is very much in the details here, and we've seen these sorts of issues play out in very ugly ways many times before, in news and other areas.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@dmarti @jeffjarvis And figuring this out now (while the stakes are low) will be much easier than sorting it out after the first mess.

Jeff Jarvis Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @dmarti But not doing anything while figuring it all out is a common malady in the news business: inertia as excuse for inaction.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis @dmarti I think this is fairly simple: Have an explicit agreement that when a journalist leaves, they will allow them to migrate their account. Or if not, make that crystal clear.

Julio J. 🀲Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis @dmarti An intermediate point can be for the media instance to allow journalist to add their own users via webfinger so searching for "[email protected]" returns my user on my instance of choice plus rel='me' links on their author pages

Jeff Jarvis Nov 17, 2022

@j3j5 @mattblaze @dmarti Yes. It's not even intermediate, but another option: let journos verify position via rel=me.

Julio J. 🀲Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis @mattblaze @dmarti Yeah, the webfinger part I think is important so it's easier to discover the journos while keeping their brand

Julio J. 🀲Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis @mattblaze @dmarti For people reading who may not know what I mean, I have it set up with my own domain and it works with the same format than email addresses, if you search for "[email protected]" (not my email, but it could be) my user in hachyderm.io shows up. Media orgs could set up for their journos so [email protected] points to my own user.

SmittyHalibut Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis @dmarti Question if historical posts: do those belong to the media company or the individual? Would the media co allow them to export those posts and host them statically somewhere else, or rely on the media company to make them available at their discretion?

Luna Corbden Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @dmarti @jeffjarvis As a Fediverse newb but internet old, it seems the ultimate solution would be to have your identity be hosted separately from your corporate instance, and have that be baked into the system so it’s default or they can’t bypass. Similar to what Inrupt Solid is trying to do. Seems too late to build it like that?

@corbden @mattblaze @dmarti @jeffjarvis
I agree, I think #Mastodon and other #fediverse apps could enable a separate identity verification protocol, and the the identity authorities themselves could follow the same decentralized and federated philosophy as the rest of the Fediverse. Mastodon could add UI components that make it easy for everyone to see the verification details for any given individual.

@jeffjarvis @mattblaze @dmarti really like the question. There aren't norms that I'm aware of. Agreed that Twitter has some advantages for journalists vs traditional print publication copyright ownership. At this point, the Twitter model is only a thought experiment now. There is a "firstest with the mostest" argument for publications jumping in. Hopefully the publications with early Mastodon instances have a cooperative, enlightened self interest.

@dmarti @mattblaze @jeffjarvis oooooh, that is a *good* observation. Who owns your Mastodon account? I guess if you use your employers instance, it's the same rules as your corporate email. If you want a private one, go elsewhere I guess ...

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@lkarlslund @dmarti @jeffjarvis yes. “Who owns your account” is a legal question, not a protocol question.

@mattblaze @dmarti @jeffjarvis so how do you draw a parallel to Twitter accounts? Many write "not endorsed by my employer", "opinions are mine" in their bio, but still you can contact journalists etc. And what about Signal - are they using a company paid phone, who owns the phone number at the time of invoice ... this whole personal/company split is #interesting

Patrick McEwen Nov 17, 2022

@dmarti @mattblaze @jeffjarvis Might be something that is better run by unions than employers

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis as far as I understand you own your account so you're the one taking it elsewhere, however I understand the instance admins reign supreme over their own instance. Maybe other instances refusing to federate as a way of pressuring them to do the right thing could be a solution.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@pjperez @[email protected] problem is you can't tell if they're doing the right thing until it comes up when someone tries to move and tehy can't (and then makes noise about it).

Dagan Henderson Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis If a journalist manages the credentials to their own Twitter account, yes they could take it with them. But back in the day I worked with many media groups that would either require journalists to interact via an organization-controlled client (no direct access to the Twitter account) or have explicit contract verbage that said the org owned the social media accounts. So really, no different.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@dagan @jeffjarvis if that’s something people are willing to agree to, fine. But hoping it will just work out the way you expect it to is like not having a will and hoping your heirs will work things out the way you hope.

Make. Agreements. Upfront.

Dagan Henderson Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis I definitely agree with your points, Matt. I only wanted to point out that Twitter had the same problem—except that perhaps Mastadon may imply something is possible when it may well not be, or is today but may not be tomorrow.

Adam Fields Nov 17, 2022

@jeffjarvis @mattblaze @dagan it feels like mastodon would benefit from the ability to associate accounts on multiple servers together with one another (with validation from those accounts, of course), and the option to automatically follow all associated accounts when any of them are followed.

Evan Prodromou Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis most of us have worked out how to balance having a personal email address and a work email address.

I think it's pretty reasonable for a journalist to have their personal account and a work account. They can share, boost, and link to each other.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@evan @jeffjarvis I think most journalists believe their byline, sources, etc belong to them and go with them when they change jobs. Social media presence probably falls into that category, too.

Evan Prodromou Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis OK. Maybe there's something different about being a journalist than being a software developer.

When I leave a software job, my work email address and Slack account stops working, usually with an automated message.

Blog posts I've written or code I've deployed stays with my ex-employer.

My personal accounts on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook all stay under my control.

Is it different for journalists?

C. Scott Ananian (he/him)Nov 17, 2022

@evan @mattblaze @jeffjarvis I'm not certain it's even different for software developers: a lot of my git commits deliberately have [email protected] in the Author line, not [email protected] . Reputation is important regardless of your field.

I think what the fediverse is missing is a way to combine alts into a whole-person persona. GitHub will attribute my commits across any number of email addresses to cscott@github if i jump through the right hoops. There needs to be a way to say that the fediverse ID @cscott is also @[email protected] and also @[email protected] and other aliases from my past, as well as @cscott@boston-local-politics and @cscott@lego-brick-builders etc. Folks who follow "me" might want to follow all/some/one of these alts. And followers might elect to come along if i fork off a new alt ("job" for journalists).

Jeff Jarvis Nov 17, 2022

@cscott @evan @mattblaze Yes. I like that idea of combined -- or linked -- identities.

Chema Hernández Gil Nov 17, 2022

Kind of an aside, but that is one of the best things about the Fediverse for everyone, not just journalists! I have this, my main account, but also "echo" accounts on the regional servers sfba.social and tooting.ch to help be share and boost relevant, region-specific content.

SFBA.social

A Mastodon instance for the San Francisco Bay Area. Come on in and join us!

Mastodon hosted on sfba.social

Crista 💬Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis Same for any other institution, e.g. universities. I thought about pressuring UC Irvine to do what MIT did, but then quickly backed away from that thought for the reasons you mention.

Institutional nodes will be better used only for institutional posts created by the Comms staff of several departments -- something they already do in social media using institutional accounts. Individuals are better served by using independent, or their own, nodes, with verified links.

Dinah 🕊🇺🇦Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @jeffjarvis This strongly argues for organizations of journalists to create their own instances with rules and practices serving the health of public discourse.

Matt Blaze Nov 17, 2022

@metagrrrl @jeffjarvis I agree. I think it's very risky for journalists to allow their public identity to be tied to their employer, and extremely naive to assume that when Peter Thiel buys the NY Times and fires everyone who's ever written uncharitably about billionaires, that he'll willingly let them migrate elsewhere smoothly.

Beardo The Bearded Odalisque Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @metagrrrl @jeffjarvis
It makes the case for a co-op setup for a group of journalists. The rules can be clearer, and the buy in as well for those involved.

Ethan J. A. Schoonover Nov 17, 2022

@mattblaze @metagrrrl @jeffjarvis

Would love to see Mastodon develop tooling around badging that derives from "official lists". If an employer maintains a list of their journalists and that can be opted into as a badge, that would be great. Ultimately this would require oversight that I don't know Mastodon is tooled up for now on an organizational basis (e.g. a wikipedia style governance committee)