Mastodawn

Daniel V.

@dvandal@infosec.exchange

79 Followers

145 Following

537 Posts

Software Automation 🤖
Cats 🐈‍⬛
Linux 🐧

I break shit for a living.

Certified Pissed and ready to throw hands with this goddamn regime.

You'll get mostly pictures of my lovely Bean (cat), occasional politics posting, and some general yapping about tech.

"I'm glad to know that the Software Engineering department isn't the only team that expects Daniel to break everything"

He/Him/They/Grilled Cheese

Daniel V.6h ago

Mike Sheward 6h ago

So I live in what is considered a “ferry community” in the Seattle area, in that the quickest, well, most direct, way to get to Seattle is on the State or County ferry across Puget sound.

Anyway, there are lots of little community groups for ferry commuters etc, and overnight they all started reporting that employees of Washington State Ferries received an email that informed them that ICE agents would be working on ferries in coming days.

Now, no way of 100% confirming that is true yet, but given the way things have been going, I wouldn’t be surprised.

And just to say - that’s messed up. The state ferries are technically part of the state highway system - people rely on them to get to work, to medical appointments. What’s next, checkpoints on actual highways?

I’m often on the ferries, so my plan as always in these situations is to maliciously comply. Ask for my papers? You’re getting them, slowly, and buddy we’re going to talk for the full half an hour of the ferry ride about ever item of gear on your belt. We’re talking about how you got into this line of work. Polite small talk as a weapon, disabling you from talking to anyone else.

Daniel V.6h ago

Kevin Beaumont 13h ago

“Over four months, LLM users consistently underperformed at neural, linguistic, and behavioral levels.”

https://www.media.mit.edu/publications/your-brain-on-chatgpt/

Your Brain on ChatGPT: Accumulation of Cognitive Debt when Using an AI Assistant for Essay Writing Task – MIT Media Lab

This study explores the neural and behavioral consequences of LLM-assisted essay writing. Participants were divided into three groups: LLM, Search Engine…

MIT Media Lab

Daniel V.6h ago

Update:

Mastodon has checked its alarming new TOS into git as the new TOS template:

https://infosec.exchange/@dvandal/114699285766155770

Meaning all new Ruby Mastodon instances created after this date who use the stock legal text will *also* adopt an irrevocable IP grant license (no way to terminate the license if you decide your instance is abusing it) for post content (and also potentially some existing instances, if they regenerate their TOS from templates)

( POST EDITED: https://hachyderm.io/@thisismissem/114699395151999383 )

Daniel V. (@dvandal@infosec.exchange)

@mcc@mastodon.social I think the part you're referencing is under the Intellectual Property section, right? (Edit: Here's the link to the terms template on Github: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/blob/main/config/templates/terms-of-service.md) Here's the contents directly off of the 'main' branch (just pulled it down to have the latest of everything): Intellectual Property The Instance contains content provided by its users, including you, such as text, photos, videos, audio, links, and streams (“Content”). When you submit Content to the Instance, you represent and warrant that you have all of the rights, power, and authority necessary to grant the rights to the Content contained within these Terms. Because you alone are responsible for the Content that you submit to the Instance, you may expose yourself to liability from third parties if you post or share such Content without all necessary rights. You retain all ownership rights you have in the Content that you submit to the Instance, but you grant us a limited, non-exclusive, irrevocable, transferable, royalty-free, perpetual license to use, copy, store, display, share, distribute, communicate and transfer the Content in ways that are consistent with your use of the Instance. To the fullest extent possible, you agree to waive or promise not to assert against the Administrator all moral rights you may have in the Content to the extent those rights are necessary for the Administrator to host the Content on the Instance.

Infosec Exchange

Daniel V.6h ago

Exasperated and disturbed the new IP license in the Mastodon TOS has no termination clause.

https://mastodon.social/terms-of-service/2025-07-01

Facebook and YouTube have terms saying you can intentionally remove your IP grant by deleting the content. Twitter lets you remove your IP grant by deleting your *accounts*, which is punitive, but possible to exercise (I did). It's very good Mastodon's grant is limited-use—but so was Tumblr, and it eventually abused its. I want Mastodon to be as pro-user as *Facebook and Google*.

Daniel V.6h ago

Me and who?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/50342-Brown-Rd-E-Sprague-WA-99032/2054503719_zpid/?

50342 Brown Rd E, Sprague, WA 99032 | MLS #202426691 | Zillow

This 2726 square feet Single Family home has 3 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms. It is located at 50342 Brown Rd E, Sprague, WA.

Zillow

Daniel V.23h ago

myrmepropagandist 1d ago

Weird Computer Contest
A contest to see the strangest computer being used to read mastodon/the fediverse. The prize is a cool drawing from me just for you.

Rules:

1. Post a reply to show your device and why it is strange. Can mean hardware and software. A photo is better.
2. You can't go *too* much out of your way to use some goofy device that you don't ever really use.
3. Winner selected by general consensus.

This is *not* just an excuse to see/post photos of strange computers.

Daniel V.1d ago

Rebecca Sear 1d ago

“Historically, no one lived past age 35” "I’ve heard *so* many versions of this claim, including recently from a menopause doctor (implying menopause is not “natural” because noone lived long enough to go through it). Every time someone states this “fact,” a demographer loses a piece of their soul"

There Were Still Old People Wh...

There Were Still Old People When Life Expectancy Was 35.

A demography myth that won't die

Data for Health

Daniel V.1d ago

David Gerard 1d ago

the problem with LLMs

https://bsky.app/profile/craigshackleton.com/post/3lrnweyuz2c2c

Daniel V.1d ago

New study on the effects of LLM use (in this case on essay writing):

https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.08872

Quote:

"LLM users also struggled to accurately quote their own work. While LLMs offer immediate convenience, our findings highlight potential cognitive costs. Over four months, LLM users consistently underperformed at neural, linguistic, and behavioral levels. These results raise concerns about the long-term educational implications of LLM reliance and underscore the need for deeper inquiry into AI's role in learning."

The interesting thing is: People who used search engines (to find sources etc) did not show similar issues. This is an important antidote against the belief that LLM-based tools are just like search engines. Which they are not. They are massively degrading their users' mental abilities and development. Which is why these systems have absolutely no place even _near_ any school or university.

https://hails.org/@hailey/114691651497761523

Your Brain on ChatGPT: Accumulation of Cognitive Debt when Using an AI Assistant for Essay Writing Task

This study explores the neural and behavioral consequences of LLM-assisted essay writing. Participants were divided into three groups: LLM, Search Engine, and Brain-only (no tools). Each completed three sessions under the same condition. In a fourth session, LLM users were reassigned to Brain-only group (LLM-to-Brain), and Brain-only users were reassigned to LLM condition (Brain-to-LLM). A total of 54 participants took part in Sessions 1-3, with 18 completing session 4. We used electroencephalography (EEG) to assess cognitive load during essay writing, and analyzed essays using NLP, as well as scoring essays with the help from human teachers and an AI judge. Across groups, NERs, n-gram patterns, and topic ontology showed within-group homogeneity. EEG revealed significant differences in brain connectivity: Brain-only participants exhibited the strongest, most distributed networks; Search Engine users showed moderate engagement; and LLM users displayed the weakest connectivity. Cognitive activity scaled down in relation to external tool use. In session 4, LLM-to-Brain participants showed reduced alpha and beta connectivity, indicating under-engagement. Brain-to-LLM users exhibited higher memory recall and activation of occipito-parietal and prefrontal areas, similar to Search Engine users. Self-reported ownership of essays was the lowest in the LLM group and the highest in the Brain-only group. LLM users also struggled to accurately quote their own work. While LLMs offer immediate convenience, our findings highlight potential cognitive costs. Over four months, LLM users consistently underperformed at neural, linguistic, and behavioral levels. These results raise concerns about the long-term educational implications of LLM reliance and underscore the need for deeper inquiry into AI's role in learning.

arXiv.org

Daniel V.2d ago

Back from a short trip to the sea, unpacking luggage. But where is Pepe? Even our grey tabby Carlo cannot find him. What a #mystery.

#catsofmastodon

×

Spencer Beswick Jun 10

White people today: the protesters in LA are hurting their own cause, they should be like MLK and the Civil Rights Movement!

Meanwhile, white people during the Civil Rights Movement:

@spencerbeswick
Illustration from the Seattle Times, for #Seattle folks.

Robin Barton Jun 10

@spencerbeswick Yes, but this narrative of violence became harder and harder to sell the longer they stuck with peaceful civil disobedience. In the end you are striving to change the minds of enough to allow change to happen. Remember women fought for the right to vote and got it when they convinced enough white men with beards to vote for it. Leveraging the political system takes time, courage, alliances and consistently refusing to take the government bait to use violence.

@Robo105 @spencerbeswick I think the fact that women got the right to vote after a few bombs were placed and other few actually exploded gets forgotten way too often.

Robin Barton Jun 10

@VonKant @spencerbeswick I had not forgotten but ignored it as it failed as so often violence does. Those men in parliament didn't quail before a few bombs just as they didn't quail before the Irish uprising or in India. Both those places won when it was clear it was no longer socially or politically possible to keep the status quo. People are quick to advocate violence as it is emotionally attractive and offers a simple solution rather than a long path of alliances & protests

tony 🏳️‍⚧️ 🏴 🚴🧗🏻6d ago

@Robo105 @VonKant @spencerbeswick people with ahistorical understandings of past events are also quick to dismiss violence with a broad brush.

Nelson Mandela and the ANC in South Africa are often credited with leading a peaceful revolution but if you read Mandela's autobiography he makes it very clear that after DECADES of peaceful protest leading nowhere, the ANC started to use more violent means like sabotage to put more pressure on the white government. It worked.

tony 🏳️‍⚧️ 🏴 🚴🧗🏻6d ago

@Robo105 @VonKant @spencerbeswick boycotts from around the world also helped, which is why the US government loves trying (often succeeding) to make boycott illegal

Robin Barton 6d ago

@autonomousapps @VonKant @spencerbeswick I agree but the key is a focus narrative of what is to be achieved and pithy saying can project that to the public.
Rule of Law for All

Robin Barton 6d ago

@autonomousapps @VonKant @spencerbeswick It didn't work and would not have worked if there not been the collapse of communism and the growing sense in South Africa that apartheid was no longer socially acceptable. Remember, Nelson brave man that he was got released from prison by a white government. If that government had been supported like Israel is now and it had social support among whites it would not have happened. Nelson stated he want peace and democracy which was a powerful narrative

Fernando M. S. 🇵🇸6d ago

@Robo105 @VonKant @spencerbeswick ok, but do the status quo change by itself? Or is there a challenge that forces the status quo change? If so, then what is the challenge in each of these cases?

Robin Barton 6d ago

@fmors @VonKant @spencerbeswick Great question. The status quo changes when a group develops a coherent message that shows why the present status quo must change and wins over adherents. I would suggest that a tightly focused 'follow the law/due process' and paint ICE and law-breaking hooligans and that the civil disobedience is to bring back democracy

not ch1c Jun 10

@Robo105 @spencerbeswick I feel like it may be worth noting that the political system you mention is no longer functional. And before it failed completely it already had a strong tropism toward supporting injustice and empowering authoritarians. So, faced with the fascism that system has (inevitably?) led us to, we’re all going to need to quickly identify and enact whatever robust, effective and certainly extra-electoral methods are available to protect our communities and ourselves from imminent harm. And sure, some of those acts (of so far only property destruction aka vandalism) may look like “violence” to those who are not (yet!) being directly attacked by the state. 🙂

Robin Barton Jun 10

@cthon1c @spencerbeswick Your violence is exactly what Trump and his ilk are hoping and planing for. He will use that as an excuse to escalate to afv's and tanks which you can't match. Democracy survives and is restored when alliances are built and peaceful protests are out in the streets day after day after day. Why use a method that has been proven to fail? Peaceful is slower and harder but more fruitful.

not ch1c Jun 10

@Robo105 @spencerbeswick Again, violence, mine lol or anyone else’s, has not yet occurred. And, yes, I agree, everyone everywhere out in the streets for as long as it takes is a great idea, but in addition to whatever a given community feels is necessary to defend themselves. It’s not our place to judge that. I agree too that martial law is coming. Hope people have the good sense to blame the fascists when it does.

https://kolektiva.social/@cthon1c/114480551502848998

not ch1c (@cthon1c@kolektiva.social)

@andytiedye@sfba.social @wdlindsy@toad.social Flood the streets in great numbers, whatever streets or malls or parking lots are closest, and make business as usual impossible. Think occupation not demonstration. Deposing the regime not denouncing it. Everyone needs to take a step or two out of their comfort zones to shut shit down, and support each other doing it. Day after day and week after week. Until the pressure on the fascists is too great and something snaps. That is what works (and every other country in the world seems to know this intuitively). Let’s give it a try 🙂 it is quite literally now or never.

kolektiva.social

Robin Barton Jun 10

@cthon1c @spencerbeswick It is a choice to react to ICE and Trump provocations. If publicly they can be made to look ridiculous acting with massive over-reaction then they can be defeated. Lech Wałęsa in Poland defeated the communist government without violence and this was a government that wanted violence. The Onion (https://theonion.com/) has a better approach than violence. The slower method of organize, create allies and protest imore successful than the emotional urge to lash out.

The Onion

America's Finest News Source

The Onion

not ch1c Jun 10

@Robo105 @spencerbeswick I feel like we’re speaking past each other now but I hope whatever you choose to do in the upcoming tumult keeps you and those around you safe 🖤

Robin Barton 6d ago

@cthon1c @spencerbeswick Agreed

@Robo105
The Onion LOL! You mean the ones telling you fascists don't need excuses to do the fascist shit they've already been doing (and will continue to try doing with or without opposition)

https://theonion.com/protesters-urged-not-to-give-trump-administration-pretext-for-what-it-already-doing/
@cthon1c @spencerbeswick

Protesters Urged Not To Give Trump Administration Pretext For What It Already Doing

LOS ANGELES—Responding to escalating clashes between civilian activists and militarized immigration authorities, Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass publicly urged protesters Monday not to give the Trump administration any pretext for what they’re already doing and will keep doing no matter what. “Angelenos—don’t engage in violence and give the administration an excuse to inflict all the […]

The Onion

Robin Barton 6d ago

@zm @cthon1c @spencerbeswick When your opponent is busy making a mistake don't interrupt him. Let Trump lash out and over do it and keep responding with peaceful protest which will drive him mad. He is creating the very response he doesn't want

Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸6d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick Just so I understand correctly: Your opinion is that we should all behave like Ghandi, i.e. even if they shoot and kill people just to keep marching forward without reacting even remotely aggressive?

Robin Barton 6d ago

@Natanox @cthon1c @spencerbeswick In 1919 the Amritsar massacre occurred in India with 400-1500 killed and 1200 wounded. Gandhi stuck with peaceful disobedience and India didn't descend into a civil war and the UK left India. You can't match the power of the state. Use the powerful tools you have. Create a compelling narrative that gains support from the public and stay on message and peaceful. If Trump loses power it will be through massive ongoing peaceful protests that win allies.

Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸6d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick Please read that again and tell me you didn't just say that our best weapon is being sufficiently publicly massacred.

May I also point out Tiananmen Square. Just because people are being massacred does not even remotely mean it will sway the majority of people or cause authocrats to go away. It can also be used by the regime as example of force, especially if their propaganda sticks with enough people.

Robin Barton 6d ago

@Natanox @cthon1c @spencerbeswick I think you missed the point that Gandhi rejected violence as it was sure way to lose. UK lost India because they were not able to match Gandhi's message and so lost public legitimacy. China has tens of thousands of protests and like all totalitarian regimes is powerful but brittle. USA is a dying democracy not a totalitarian regime hence the use of rubber bullets. If Trump can portray the protests as violence he wins. What did occupy movement change? Nothing

huertanix 6d ago

@Robo105 @Natanox @cthon1c @spencerbeswick
> What didoccupy movement change? Nothing

False. The concept of student loan forgiveness, single-payer healthcare and other social services went from fringe to presidential candidate talking points within a decade and it would not have become true without Occupy Wall Street; people really don't talk about this enough.

In the same way, the idea of donor states like CA and NY withholding federal taxes from the US was largely a fringe concept that has been a talking point for both NYC mayoral candidates and now a sitting governor.

Career politicians like Newsom don't ACT on these ideas unless they see people taking the streets and make them sweat. If a few Waymo cars have to be lit on fire to get his attention, that's ok with me!

Additionally, the US is not the UK. If you read up on the history of the British Empire, there was a specific set of imperial grand narratives that Ghandi's use of nonviolence took advantage in contradicting to make people outside India sympathetic.

The US doesn't have that. It's culture, it's "soul" that Joe Biden spent 4 years looking for rather than making real policy change--is land and resource grabs for their own sake, a dumbed-down "us versus them" mentality with zero questions asked about who gets to be "them" next, and a moral justification that can be summed up as "fuck you I got mine." It has, can and will massacre an unarmed "them" and the "us" will only cheer and clap.

There are reasons why Ghandi is very well known, and the many violent resistances against British rule were removed from history.

https://theconversation.com/the-forgotten-violence-that-helped-india-break-free-from-colonial-rule-57904

@Natanox @cthon1c @spencerbeswick

The forgotten violence that helped India break free from colonial rule

The road to independence was not a simple tale of civil disobedience.

The Conversation

Robin Barton 6d ago

@Heidentweet @Natanox @cthon1c @spencerbeswick Yes, Gandhi succeeded whereas Chandra Bose attempted to escape to USSR

Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸6d ago

@Robo105 @Heidentweet @cthon1c @spencerbeswick You're missing the point. The Indian independency wasn't achieved purely through peaceful protests.

Robin Barton 6d ago

@Natanox @Heidentweet @cthon1c @spencerbeswick If you are going to demand perfect pure non-violence or pure perfect violence then you will be disappointed.
UK gave up India because the UK people had no stomach for empire. The Indian people had removed any social/political legitimacy for empire. Gandhi led this process. If violence was so important to it why then did independence not happen when Japan was supporting such violence and the UK was strained to its limits elsewhere.

Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸6d ago

@Robo105 @Heidentweet @cthon1c @spencerbeswick I thought you demanded clear non-violence? 🤔

Robin Barton 6d ago

@Natanox @Heidentweet @cthon1c @spencerbeswick I think you misunderstood my position. With protests involving hopefully millions asking for such ideals is only an aspiration. My argument is that violence in most cases is self-defeating as the state has overwhelming military power at its beck and call. The broad tent alliance of protest should denounce violence and have a clear message of non-violence and clarion call of what they hope to achieve.

@Robo105 As I wrote earlier, there are reason people, like you, talk about Ghandi and never about Ho Chi Minh.

@Natanox @cthon1c @spencerbeswick

@Heidentweet @Robo105 @Natanox @cthon1c @spencerbeswick Ghandi got all the credit, while it was diversity of tactics that got the Empire out of India

Otherwise the wrong plebs might get ideas ...

(*looking at state condoned violence by football hooligans, neo-nazis, and farmers*)

@Robo105 @Natanox @cthon1c @spencerbeswick

Robin Barton 5d ago

@Heidentweet @Natanox @cthon1c @spencerbeswick Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist fighting foreigners (French and then USA) who had created puppet government. This is vastly different then internal dissent. The South Vietnamese governments were weak, corrupt and unpopular due to view they were american stooges

purple despairs 4d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick 🤷‍♀️

https://theonion.com/protesters-urged-not-to-give-trump-administration-pretext-for-what-it-already-doing/

Protesters Urged Not To Give Trump Administration Pretext For What It Already Doing

LOS ANGELES—Responding to escalating clashes between civilian activists and militarized immigration authorities, Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass publicly urged protesters Monday not to give the Trump administration any pretext for what they’re already doing and will keep doing no matter what. “Angelenos—don’t engage in violence and give the administration an excuse to inflict all the […]

The Onion

Catherine is not giving up.Jun 10

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick pish tosh. You’re missing the fact that if he wants to respond to violence he will manufacture violence.

Robin Barton 6d ago

@CatDragon @cthon1c @spencerbeswick Yes, but that is why we need to be loud and active and flood the zone with evidence to the contrary. If main stream media has published articles that violence is what Trumps wants then they are open to the idea that it might not be wise to take Trump's word for what is happening

Catherine is not giving up.6d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick I have no faith in that.

Ciggy Bringer of Smoke 6d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick

Who is the excuse provided to and how do the receivers of the excuse uphold it?

Also, what trite horseshit about longer and slower and more fruitful when I presume you're on the back 9 of life and are gonna be dead before ecological collapse changes the time sensitive calculus you take for granted.

Robin Barton 6d ago

@ciggysmokebringer @cthon1c @spencerbeswick The excuse Trump will use is the one wanna-be despots always use, law breakers, terrorist, out of control, paid foreign actors etc. If the public in the middle can be won over then you have a chance by not allowing him to create the narrative. There is always an excuse for the emotional release of violence but it changes nothing. Build alliances, create a narrative of what you hope to achieve and stay on message for that goal

Ciggy Bringer of Smoke 6d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick

I'm referring to how 'the excuse' actually works in a 'manufacturing consent' way. The way these convos usually go seem to allude to 'the excuse' working on passive compliance and people who already go along with anything going along with yet another thing.

So if 'the excuse' works on people lying down and taking it, then it would seem the antidote is...actively resisting, agnostic of the method, though I am happy to admit 90% of methodology here is peaceful and unseen on the daily.

If we wanna be cute about double meanings, then a demonstration against tyranny is an on the nose meta joke - not being compliant or laying down with 'the excuse' provided for you to lay down.

I think this is critically more important than dancing around the edges of not provoking an abuser who is committed to abuse - actualizing that 'the excuse' is basically telling people who might have an impulse to not take it, to take it, and if they don't take it then they'll partially be to blame for the abuse and provoking it.

I know it's hard to realize that supposed self governance has abusive elements and rhetorical ploys that are abusive, but this is what we're dealing with when talking about manufacturing consent.

The allusion to a public in the middle - if you win them over, what are the actively doing to signal they have been won over, and how do they assist in winning larger objectives - this is why I don't think the theory of giving an abuser an excuse adds up to much if you've ever taken a swing at abuser before.

The only way to signal you aren't taking it is to...not take it, and not insist others take it too (and there's future dates to rectify it, maybe, abuser permitting you the ability. I seriously am at my wits end that the mainstream Liberal antidote couldn't even be deployed until '26.)

Robin Barton 6d ago

@ciggysmokebringer @cthon1c @spencerbeswick Trump will never be able to control himself as he is emotionally an infant. He will always lash out. The key is to create alliances and narratives that gain allies. A broad church alliance will pressure Trump supporters in congress and the uncommitted public to recalculate whether supporting him is worth the cost. Until that calculation changes the protests are just noise that will be brushed aside like the occupy movement was

Ciggy Bringer of Smoke 6d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick

So you recommend a second Democratic Party, that does actual things a political party would?

Robin Barton 6d ago

@ciggysmokebringer @cthon1c @spencerbeswick The democratic party is tied to billionaires as elections are expensive. The only movement I have seen in the USA that seems to have a coherent message is the No More Kings. Create a broad church alliance to gain allies and fill the streets to change the country.

Ciggy Bringer of Smoke 6d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick

No Kings is almost entirely disaffected Liberals who rightfully don't trust the Democratic Party to do politics any more, but we'll see if it floats on its own without having hegemonic grasp over other partisans. It's coherent because it's a plea to hold onto Liberal Democracy which is a legible desire to Liberals, but is borderline parochial to anyone to their Left.

Earnestly, a testament to No Kings will be if they stick with it despite lack of total and immediate buy in from other partisans who have their own ideas and goals and methods. Allies are not vassal entities after all.

OvertonDoors 6d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick

The remedy is inevitably always comparable in scope to the illness that must be redressed.

Our peace dividend reaped in America from WWII to present has brought sweeping material advancements. Vast changes in the fabric of society that have favored the collection of power into the hands of a few corporate oligopolies. But society is more than 200 cable channels, free wifi, and a "new" model iPhone model every year. It's how we spend our time, what we deem of value, where our energies go, what our civil society esteems valuable (or never does), how we care for each other (or don't). For all that we have gained from successive technological revolutions we've lost much along the way as well. What we've gained in sophistication has been lost in decorum.

We can't expect meaningfully change to arise unless we are collectively willing to abandon the institutions that are actively trying to pigeon-hole us into a corporate neo-plantation aristocracy. Fascism is as much about tanks in the street as it is Georgia Pacific (a Koch affiliated corporation) paper products in every single home business and government building. That structure holds up the money and political will of the GOP. They will both have to be renounced to move beyond either.

Robin Barton 6d ago

@OvertonDoors @cthon1c @spencerbeswick You make some great points and it is well laid out. I would suggest that the changes you are suggesting will happen if an alternative message that is coherent and tightly focused can win adherents in the middle ground of the public. Lenin came up with 'Land, Bread, Peace, which worked. What will work now?

OvertonDoors 6d ago

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick

Thanks @Robo105 I really appreciate that. All the above, that's a distillation of what's been on my heart/head of late, your original post struck a resonance. 🤜🤛

You know, there are plenty of ways to be impoverished, moneys just one of them. I don't have a lot of that, but I do have a good sense of how things fit together (and how they don't). By which I mean, we are not there yet as a society. We are not willing or able to make these transformation I speak of above.

All the ingredients are present, but the equilibrium does not favor foreword motion. That will take heat, pressure, and probably a catylist as well. Our rampant use of carbon energy (another one we have the Kochs to thank for) will bring the heat. The loss of material wealth and civil liberties is bringing the pressure, but we still have much yet to endure here as well. The catylist, well that will show up once the other two have brought society into a new meta-stable state. We're still asleep, dreaming other men's dreams for them.

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick Do Not Split.

https://mas.to/@cykonot/114651470709292060

Cykonot (@cykonot@mas.to)

Attached: 2 images Hong Kong protestors say: "Do Not Split." Do not condemn the people on your side who embrace tactics you disagree with. Do. Not. Split. #doNotSplit

mas.to

Robin Barton 6d ago

@corpsmoderne @cthon1c @spencerbeswick By that logic, no discussion can occur. This will lead to either chaos as everyone goes their own way or control by one man who enforces their ideas. Either way the state wins. The key is to develop a focused message and use civil disobedience to win over the middle ground in public opinion. Focus the message on 'Due process' we want the law followed and paint the ICE as rule breakers

@Robo105 @cthon1c @spencerbeswick by any means: you're Canadian, I'm French. Discussions about tactics have to occur between the people who are currently defending their communities in LA. We can choose to spend our time supporting them whatever our opinion on their tactics, or nitpicking about their means.
My experience with demos in my country is that the police and the state control the level of violence, and the mass media will focus on the trashcan in fire whatever you do.

Robin Barton 6d ago

@corpsmoderne @cthon1c @spencerbeswick The protests fail again and again as they play out the same sad song of rock throwing and violence that feel exciting but accomplish little or nothing. If you want change build a compelling narrative that gains allies to fill the streets. Vague statements of 'unfair' are useless and rocks generally do not stop armoured fight vehicles. Many people are looking for a reason to support change but no focused narrative of what that means has emerged.

MedusaSkirt Jun 10

@Robo105 @spencerbeswick here’s the thing: violent methods of resistance is another tool, another tactic/strategy in resistance just like non-violence

We don’t actually know if primarily non-violent resistance works better regardless of context, because whether or not non-violence is better is just as dependent on context as whether or not violence is better.

MedusaSkirt Jun 10

@Robo105 @spencerbeswick Activists have been arguing about this since probably-forever and there isn’t enough convincing evidence to show if either non-violent or violent resistance is “better” overall… probably because, at least to me, asking which one is “better” without any context is asking the wrong question

A Tattered Scrapbook 6d ago

@medusaskirt @Robo105 @spencerbeswick It’s funny that those who are entirely opposed to violent protests never talk about the White Rose group in Nazi Germany, or non-violent protests in Pinochet’s Chile, or, while referencing Tiananmen as an example of repression, skip over the massacre of peaceful protestors… It’s always MLK and Gandhi, both of whom were murdered…

Robin Barton 6d ago

@Tattered @medusaskirt @spencerbeswick The difference is between a dying democracy and a dictatorship. One has the possibility of peaceful protest and the other has a sure chance to be shot. Hitler said he would shoot a 1,000 of Gandhi's followers and keep repeating until resistance ended. Remember this is the man that led Germany over a cliff. China has tens of thousands of protest a year so that has not ended either

MedusaSkirt 6d ago

@Robo105 @Tattered @spencerbeswick Robo, we in the US are at a point where our dying democracy could turn dictatorship in a matter of weeks… or take years, or never happens

Like, you’re talking about a situation so chaotic and unpredictable that it’s not really possible to arm-chair judge whether non-violent or violent resistance is broadly “better” right now; it greatly depends upon things like local goals, who is being dealt with, etc., and it can even change from day to day

MedusaSkirt 6d ago

@Robo105 @Tattered @spencerbeswick like, Robo105, think about the practicalities of when non-violent and violent tactics make sense, and like do it with very specific scenarios and not just trying to make conclusions based on big picture summaries of history

Robin Barton 6d ago

@medusaskirt @Tattered @spencerbeswick I agree that you are in a dying democracy but others have been there before and won. They did it by having a compelling narrative of the problem and a solution which wins you allies. You need to sway the public in the middle so that Trump doesn't set the narrative. Are the protest out of control violent foreign paid actors or are they patriots fighting for due process for all, same constitution for all and same tax burden for all.

A Tattered Scrapbook 6d ago

@Robo105 @medusaskirt @spencerbeswick And what do you think Trump will say/do that is different from Hitler? Given that big differences between DJT and AH include the existence of Palantir, drones, and so on?
It would be nice if you were right. I suspect you are not, and that the American bases in Japan will be my ticket to a death camp.