Spencer BeswickWhite people today: the protesters in LA are hurting their own cause, they should be like MLK and the Civil Rights Movement!
Meanwhile, white people during the Civil Rights Movement:
Robin Barton@spencerbeswick Yes, but this narrative of violence became harder and harder to sell the longer they stuck with peaceful civil disobedience. In the end you are striving to change the minds of enough to allow change to happen. Remember women fought for the right to vote and got it when they convinced enough white men with beards to vote for it. Leveraging the political system takes time, courage, alliances and consistently refusing to take the government bait to use violence.
MedusaSkirt@Robo105 @spencerbeswick here’s the thing: violent methods of resistance is another tool, another tactic/strategy in resistance just like non-violence
We don’t actually know if primarily non-violent resistance works better regardless of context, because whether or not non-violence is better is just as dependent on context as whether or not violence is better.
@Robo105 @spencerbeswick Activists have been arguing about this since probably-forever and there isn’t enough convincing evidence to show if either non-violent or violent resistance is “better” overall… probably because, at least to me, asking which one is “better” without any context is asking the wrong question
A Tattered Scrapbook@medusaskirt @Robo105 @spencerbeswick It’s funny that those who are entirely opposed to violent protests never talk about the White Rose group in Nazi Germany, or non-violent protests in Pinochet’s Chile, or, while referencing Tiananmen as an example of repression, skip over the massacre of peaceful protestors… It’s always MLK and Gandhi, both of whom were murdered…
@Tattered @medusaskirt @spencerbeswick The difference is between a dying democracy and a dictatorship. One has the possibility of peaceful protest and the other has a sure chance to be shot. Hitler said he would shoot a 1,000 of Gandhi's followers and keep repeating until resistance ended. Remember this is the man that led Germany over a cliff. China has tens of thousands of protest a year so that has not ended either
@Robo105 @Tattered @spencerbeswick Robo, we in the US are at a point where our dying democracy could turn dictatorship in a matter of weeks… or take years, or never happens
Like, you’re talking about a situation so chaotic and unpredictable that it’s not really possible to arm-chair judge whether non-violent or violent resistance is broadly “better” right now; it greatly depends upon things like local goals, who is being dealt with, etc., and it can even change from day to day
@Robo105 @Tattered @spencerbeswick like, Robo105, think about the practicalities of when non-violent and violent tactics make sense, and like do it with very specific scenarios and not just trying to make conclusions based on big picture summaries of history
@medusaskirt @Tattered @spencerbeswick I agree that you are in a dying democracy but others have been there before and won. They did it by having a compelling narrative of the problem and a solution which wins you allies. You need to sway the public in the middle so that Trump doesn't set the narrative. Are the protest out of control violent foreign paid actors or are they patriots fighting for due process for all, same constitution for all and same tax burden for all.
@Robo105 @medusaskirt @spencerbeswick And what do you think Trump will say/do that is different from Hitler? Given that big differences between DJT and AH include the existence of Palantir, drones, and so on?
It would be nice if you were right. I suspect you are not, and that the American bases in Japan will be my ticket to a death camp.
It would be nice if you were right. I suspect you are not, and that the American bases in Japan will be my ticket to a death camp.
@Tattered @medusaskirt @spencerbeswick The death camps came after the pressure of WW2 meant Germany could not expel what it considered undesirables. USA is a dying democracy and not yet a totalitarian regime otherwise we would not be having this discussion and the National Guard who be piling up bodies. DJT & AH share some ideology, racism, lebensraum, misogyny and manifest destiny) but DJT is not there yet
@Robo105 @medusaskirt @spencerbeswick Why do you think people are not coming back from El Salvador? That members of Congress cannot visit those who have been deported? You very much are already there, because AH is not the only murderous despot that DJT looks back on. He has Thatcher’s favourite Pinochet as an example, too.
What kind of prisons do you think can take 3000 people per day?
What kind of prisons do you think can take 3000 people per day?
@Tattered @medusaskirt @spencerbeswick Kilmar Ábrego García was visited & brought back. USA is a dying democracy which is still using rubber bullets. The Occupy movement accomplished nothing as it had no compelling narrative to gather allies and focus on the ills of society. I suspect, sadly, that these protests which are well meant will fail to gather allies and public support because Trump will control the narrative. Many people are in the middle waiting to here a reason to offer support.
@Robo105 "the death camps came after the pressure of WW2"
that is just incorrect, the death camps were planned from the beginning; they weren't a side effect of Nazi Germany starting WW2, they were part of *the plan* the Nazis had for the war
also, I see in a later post you reference how the Occupy movement accomplished nothing... when the Occupy movement was overwhelmingly peaceful
Robin Barton, please stop, you don't know what you're talking about, you're starting to sound like a psyop
@medusaskirt Historians are split about the Intentionalists and the Structuralists regarding the final solution. Hitler wanted to send the Jews to Madagascar to rid Germany of his problem. My point about Occupy was that they had not compelling narrative and so their opponents were able to create one for them. Why when people disagree they always suggest that the interlocker is evil (psy-Op) the No More Kings movement is the only one I have seen in the USA that has a coherent message.
@Robo105 if this is not the first time someone on the internet got "psy-op" vibes from you, stop replying to be the most-confidently-smart person in the room and reflect on wtf you're saying... maybe actually listen to the people you're trying to win internet arguments against
not at all a good look that you're spreading misinfo about the Holocaust while trying to advocate for "non-violent only resistance pls get behind this one named movement that I will argue was terrible in a few months"
@Tattered @medusaskirt @spencerbeswick Yes, Gandhi was kill by a radical Hindu and MLK by a racist. Nobody would suggest that it was safe or easy but civil rights happened and India did not descend into a civil war like Algeria. White Rose were brave children in a totalitarian dictatorship during a global war. Pinochet lost power due to the 1988 plebiscite. Right now the National guard is using rubber bullets so there is time to build a coherent and compelling narrative to woo the public.
@Robo105 @medusaskirt @spencerbeswick I think you somewhat overlook the Partition of India, and the subsequent human rights abuses…
I’ll leave this conversation with the reported last words of Rosa Luxemburg: “Which prison are you taking me to?”
Bon chance.