Mastodawn

ShadSterling May 3

SecondUniverse (she/her/they)

20% of women "might" regret a sterilization procedure, so the NHS often denies access.

1) The "regret" bogeyman is rolled out for any procedure deviating from social norms. For example, gender affirming care has an almost 0% regret rate, but "regret" is still used to gatekeep care. The rate of regret is not the factor. It is resistance to the idea people can choose not to follow the "norm".

2) People can choose things in life knowing they might regret them. The possibility of regret is part of our freedom. Only the person undergoing the procedure can decide if the risk is acceptable to them.

3) A life with regrets is not a lesser life. A life paternalistically shielded from regret is a diminished life.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/may/01/female-sterilisation-nhs-access-questions

#trans #womensRights #ukpol

Woman’s fight for sterilisation raises questions over access to procedure

Critics say women face unequal treatment but others say tighter controls reflect legitimate medical concerns

The Guardian

@SecondUniverse I have known since CHILDHOOD that I did not want to have children. Now many decades later it was the best decision of my life. Not only have I not regretted not having children, I am thankful that I did not.

As for "protecting" people from regrets, FFS. It *is* so paternalistic. Fuck off creepy control freaks who are arrogant enough to think they know best for others.

samiamsam May 3

@nomdeb @SecondUniverse

same

infantalizing women as usual

Jacqueline May 3

@SecondUniverse the only thing I regret is not transitioning earlier

Jacqueline May 3

@SecondUniverse

I regret living my teenage years as a depressed shut in

Owlor 🦋May 3

@SecondUniverse The number one regret among trans people is "oh my god, I should have started transitioning sooner", but somehow that regret doesn't count.

Terrible Towelie May 3

@SecondUniverse why don't people ever regret not minding their own fucking business?

@SecondUniverse

Even if assuming the possibility of regret was a valid reason to refuse care, then some kind of an expectational value has to be formed, weightening the different levels of regret with their likelihood against the different levels of happiness with their likelihood. One might also regret a vaccine if one is among the few people having severe side effects. Still it would be insane to refuse.

And I have sever doubts that this is done properly. So even the argument of

Passenger May 3

@SecondUniverse

It's applied really inconsistently, though. For example, the regret rate on laser eye surgery is weirdly high, but that doesn't get brought up in discussions about whether to allow it or not.

It's almost as if the authorities only care about regret rate when it's a stick to beat underprivileged people (trans people, women) with.

Over There May 3

@SecondUniverse

@SecondUniverse that's not even what the literature shows. I know because I looked a bunch up when writing the essay one specialist recommended to write to a second before I got mine.

It's like 4% regret. Which is the same or less than various other serious procedures.

And guess what - way less than having-a-child regret.
They always care more about hypothetical future people's desires than our own and it's fking disgusting.

Joan's Addiction 😷May 3

@SecondUniverse This is a classic right-wing Christian argument:

It was deployed aggressively during the campaign ahead of the 2018 referendum to #Repeal the 8th amendment to the Irish constitution.

In that case, the argument failed: spectacularly. The referendum result was the largest landslide in voting history in Ireland - to say Yes to rejecting the 8th , and allow access to abortion.

However, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance ", so we can't take that for granted.

llanciawn May 3

@clickhere @SecondUniverse Government should be overtly secular.

Joan's Addiction 😷May 3

In Ireland, it is. That doesn't seem to trouble the theocratists, though.

@SecondUniverse

llanciawn May 3

@clickhere @SecondUniverse Perhaps no-one has taken them to court?

Irene Zhang May 3

@SecondUniverse lol I’d love to see the regret rate on kids if people actually answered honestly.

samiamsam May 3

@irene @SecondUniverse

every parent i've asked if they had to do it over would they still have kids

90% said they would skip having kids

of course i was sworn to secrecy to get them to answer honestly

Irene Zhang May 3

@samiamsam @SecondUniverse yeah it just feels like the default so pretty easy to do it and then realize later it’s not something that you want. Plus it takes almost 20 years to raise a kid. A lot of people are totally different people by then.

@SecondUniverse I wish this wasn’t a universal issue is almost any country where sterilization is available..

My cousin had health threatening period complications this year and lost enough blood to require multiple transfusions. She does not want kids and she told that to the doctors during her stay in hospital. It still it took four people and herself to hammer it into the doctor that treated her before he agreed to remove her ovaries and uterus vs trying yet another bandaid fix.

(This was in Germany)

[EDIT since I remembered it just now]

Another friend lives in the US, she has a variant of glass bones and can’t physically survive a pregnancy yet the doctors refused her request stating “what if she changed her mind and sued them for sterilisation?”

/cc @purplepadma

נחום Philoxenon וו.May 3

@SecondUniverse I don't remember the regret rate for tatooes, I'm sure though it's higher than gender affirming treatments. Will they outlaw tatoos because of this?

Jules she/her May 3

@SecondUniverse 50% of people regret student loans, but we're positively encouraged to take those out

🏳️‍🌈 Brie 🪰🚴🌸✨May 3

@SecondUniverse the rate of regret is a question physicians could answer proactively and I wouldn't fault them for it. Going beyond that begins to feel cruel when you have such severe potential outcomes for treatment denied.

Maybe we should have more caution about regrets policing men's actions. What's the rate of regret getting hosed on crypto, or cleaned out at the casino online or offline?

@SecondUniverse Regret Rate is meaningless. The regret rate for live saving cancer treatment is 5% or more depending on the cancer.

Erik Ableson May 3

@SecondUniverse As a male ‘fixed’ at 30, no regrets. I had to argue, but only a little compared to what women have to go through.

Every once and a while, I wonder about the path not followed, but never to the point of regretting my choices

Justin Derrick May 4

@erik @SecondUniverse Got mine at 27, after having tried at 21 and 25.

My family doctor said, “What if you meet a woman who wants children?”

My answer was “Would you like me to list the names of women I broke up with because they wanted kids?”

I followed it up with, “You’re old enough to decide to start having kids at 18. I’m 27. How much older do I need to be to decide I don’t want children?”

That got me the referral to the urology clinic. When I got there, they asked why I got a referral from my family doctor. Apparently, for vasectomies, they didn’t require one. Doh!

disorderlyf May 3

@SecondUniverse More people regret a hip replacement than GCS, but you don't see hip replacements being denied coverage.

Maggie Pie May 3

@SecondUniverse meanwhile, how many people regret filling down their teeth for veneers? Yet that is booming in popularity

Stephen Cox Author May 3

@SecondUniverse

I know someone on their fourth wife (well 3 and a longterm nonwife). That suggests a regret rate for marriage rather higher than transition.

Project 1789 May 3

@SecondUniverse
Tattoos have a high regret rate.
Is that service withheld?

@SecondUniverse a life lived without regrets is a life that has been entirely devoid of meaningful choices. There should be exclusive choices in a person's life where they are choosing which fork they will regret less.

samiamsam May 3

@SecondUniverse

i had a hysterectomy when i was 28

i never regretted it, not even for a minute

i saved years of discomfort, annoyance and money

body autonomy is a human right

we all do things we regret and we adjust and cope

Steven Saus [he/him]May 3

@SecondUniverse

Agreed, regret rates don't seem to matter for other surgeries:

The percentage of patients reporting regret ranged from 0 to 47.1 % in breast reconstruction, 5.1-9.1 % in breast augmentation, and 10.82-33.3 % in body contouring. In other surgical subspecialties, 30 % of patients experience regret following prostatectomy and up to 19.5 % following bariatric surgery.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38688814/

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Ovidi Nawer May 3

@StevenSaus @SecondUniverse add a quite high porcentage on a surgery in the ear to improve hearing that has been damage due to deterioration of the bone, exchanging it for a plastic piece.
I was offered that surgery and almost took It, but the person Who recommended It (and, like, 4 more persons) discovered that the benefits last only for around 6 months and need to get It replaced to -maybe- get It working again.
Dodged a bullet so hard.

@Nawer_Rapter @StevenSaus @SecondUniverse I was honestly expecting this to end with 'because then you have to listen to other people's bullshit' which has been my primary reason for not considering a hearing aid. 😉

Julescelt May 3

@SecondUniverse Interestingly...there areno convos about people getting told no for plastic surgery because they might regret that bust enlargement...or nose job. Ffs...

clarkiestar May 3

@SecondUniverse my sister went through decades of pain, being told she was hysterical, and being denied a hysterectomy “in case she meets a new partner who wants to have children”. Past child bearing age, she’s finally been allowed to have the surgery and they found she had extensive adenomyosis (endometriosis growing inside the muscle), fibroids in the uterus and a cyst on an ovary. Surgeon congratulated her for surviving so long with obviously so much pain.

#healthcare4all

SecondUniverse (she/her/they)May 3

@clarkiestar that's heartbreaking.

clarkiestar May 3

@SecondUniverse makes me so angry. But I’m thankful she is now pain free and has so much energy. A real new lease of life. Look out world!

diana 🏳️‍⚧️🦋🌱May 3

@SecondUniverse

Both my sister and I are way past childbearing age. We chose not to have children. Both of us are very happy professionals. One of us (me) finally got the privilege to transition, my journey since my earliest memories. The only regret is believing the colonizing narrative that kept me in the dark closet all these decades.

@SecondUniverse I found the way to get round this (50 years ago now!) was to go private - the best £150 I have ever spent, absolutely no regrets, ever. I knew without a shadow of a doubt that for me it was the right thing to do. Thank goodness I didn't listen to those who thought they knew me better than myself.

Lieschen Müller May 3

@bellinghwoman @SecondUniverse that sounds really nice, sadly it costs quite a lot now (though tbf I am unsure how much 150£ was 50 years ago)

@LieschenrelleuM @SecondUniverse The Bank of England's calculator reckons today's equivalent would be approx £1200. Seen other values up to £1600, but that's just the inflation of the base value, doesn't take into account other inflationary factors.

Mage of Voids May 3

@SecondUniverse 20% is a deadly low severe lack of foresight, and you won't know until menopause.

AS A WOMAN WHO WENT THROUGH MANY PROCEDURES WITHOUT HER CONSENT, STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION ABOUT YOUR FANTASIES OF BEING OPPRESSED THIS PARTICULAR WAY. JUST GO DONATE SOME EGGS AND GET PAID FOR IT OR STOP SAYING YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO. WOMEN END THEIR LIVES OVER THE REGRETS OF WILLINGLY BEING STERILISED AND SOME OF US GET THOSE RIGHTS STOLEN BY IDENTITY THEIVES SO STOP. STOP STOP STOP STOP.

Ovidi Nawer May 3

@Mage_of_Chaos @SecondUniverse this was hella hard to read but just to be sure: are you in favor or against letting people get sterilized

Mage of Voids May 3

@Nawer_Rapter @SecondUniverse
1 more thing to make, I don't even identify as a woman anymore, but anyways!
I am pro-choice.
I am anti forced anything. I have seen the dangers of people being psychologically manupulated to believe that early sterilasation is going to make them feel more comfortable or happy in their bodies or with their hormone cycles, PARTICULARLY women or womb baring individuals.
It's dangerous psychology risk if done without necessity, with safer alternatives.

Ovidi Nawer May 3

@Mage_of_Chaos @SecondUniverse oh okay I see I guessed so. It was hard to understand what the original post said that's why I asked mostly.
There are definetly cases of people forcing other people or convincing other people, but tbh they seem to be more an exception than a rule nowdays. Except on gambling. And getting a degree. And drinking and smoking. Things with a low barrier entry tbh. It's also weird cuz if you change the topic to trans people, this sounds TERF aligned but yeah.

Mage of Voids May 3

@Nawer_Rapter @SecondUniverse

I'm the furthest thing from a TERF you'll find. Lol.

It's actually one of the areas I studied, it's ironic because it's SO much more common than people think for them to be manipulated into doing something by being told they aren't allowed to choose to do it, etc.
It's almost reverse psychology. But worse.
I was studying psychological abuse, particularly digitally inflicted psychological abuse, with and without augmented interfaces or "AI". It's covert¹⁰.

Ovidi Nawer May 3

@Mage_of_Chaos @SecondUniverse yeah the classical backlash
Thing is,even yet,the fact that this is a much more intrusive and active choice than, let's say, a tattoo,or having by error a child actually,the effect of such psychological mechanism is severly halved by a barrier of entry
I've also been a lot into this kind of stuff, mostly personal interest tho and a lot of It through the lenses of psychology of videogames/addiction/art focused discussions so maybe i'm a bit off
That % isn't real tho

Mage of Voids May 3

@Nawer_Rapter @SecondUniverse

I've almost died during pregnancy and due to pregnancy more than twice, and from experience I can truly inform you that it's not the organ that is the risk factor from it. Anti-natalists are toxic. And womb baring individuals have a substatial risk for suicide if needlessly sterilised, particularly prior to baring children of their own but not exclusively, as in if they don't want children, I'm all for them making that choice to not get pregnant, —

Mage of Voids May 3

@Nawer_Rapter @SecondUniverse —or be around rapey folk to impregnate them. Absolutely use protection and alternatives, because I have tattoos, piercing and body altering surgeries pre-puberty that I absolutely DON'T regret, but not STERILISING & have had more surgeries than most, particularly as a child, but also as an adult. In my expertise, it's just an UNNECESSARY permanent womb modification to a temporary health risk.
There aren't unwanted/unloved children in this world. I was unplanned.

Ovidi Nawer May 3

@Mage_of_Chaos @SecondUniverse there are a lot of reasons.
Your menstruation may not have been the worst, or maybe you just like to suffer idk, but there is a lot of people (and damn me if the number isn't rising and is probably related to microplastics and massive air pollution) who would exchange a child for several years of literal horrors, which you probably know if you had to go through that many surgeries.
It's a world with too many people and too many possiblilities, that's the thing.

Mage of Voids May 3

@Nawer_Rapter @SecondUniverse
My menstruation puts me at risk of suicide monthly if literally any other type of abuse, including someone digitally harassing me, is heaped onto my menstruation, my womb leads to a diagnoses only womb baring folks can have, and it's one of the leading causes of suicide in women my age.
On the contrary to mine maybe not being as bad as others, it's disablingly painful post partum, PHYSICALLY, not like PPD, far worse, pain wise. I lack no wisdom or experience. PMDD.

Ovidi Nawer May 3

@Mage_of_Chaos ell there you have It, you're the strongest womb bearer in the world and you can tank all of it for the sake of having a child.
And that's the thing: some won't. A lot can't in fact. A whole hell of a lot of people can't.
Damn I barely wasn't able to get through becoming partially deaf (painlessly) from 1 ear and I still don't know if I will last for long before being unable to bear it anymore. And a lot of people would consider me strong.
Who knows who can tank what, and how.

Ovidi Nawer May 3

@Mage_of_Chaos honestly it's weird to be so defensive about having a child, with how the world is going right now.
I won't press it any further, but the true enemy as usual is capitalism, and until we get rid of that economy bullshit we won't be able to even grasp the surface of all this very-much-more complex-than-what-we-can-study-under-capitalism stuff.
For now I would advice to just not force anyone to anything and that's all for now.

Mage of Voids May 3

@Nawer_Rapter @SecondUniverse

Absolutely no one would exchange a child for years of horrors, you are expressing toxic assu ptions about not only me but all womb baring individuals and incorrectly assuming I have no wisdom of many things you clearly lack it in.

Ovidi Nawer May 3

@Mage_of_Chaos @SecondUniverse I mean a lot of trans people die by suicide, even after transitioning.
Do we call those regrets from transitioning? I personally wouldn't.
There's also a higher % of people who wish they were never born than people who commit suicide, mostly because you would prefer to silently disappear from the world than being a bummer to so much people.
It's a bit shaky to pull too much to "anti-natalism is toxic" to justify the harassment towards sterilized women/soon to be.

Mage of Voids May 3

@Nawer_Rapter we will not get into the suicide risks of binary or non binary or transitioning folk or transitioned ones.

A lot of serial killers make their victims look suicidal. We're needlessly drawing straws her about death risks.

@Nawer_Rapter @[email protected] @SecondUniverse There was a lot to unpack there and you were brave to attempt it. 🌻

Ovidi Nawer 6d ago

@Linza @SecondUniverse I mean brave is to turn down people doing harmful stuff irl
This is just trying to fine tune possible missunderstandings and ideas, which is the basis of human nature as that dude who was obsessed with the imperfection of language said (and Pinocchio-P, who makes music, but the lyrics are philosophy pieces by themselves sometiems)