ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES"Polls close in high-stakes Hungarian #election as #Magyar seeks to oust #Orbán"
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https://tvpworld.com/92591265/hungary-polls-close-as-magyars-tisza-seeks-to-oust-orbn
eVOTErra – #RhRR
Project 1789
Lord HeeHaw II@JustRobForNow @evoterra @benroyce I like the Australian system (I think STV), other than compulsory voting. Not voting can also be a statement of political choice, even if it is too often abused.
@hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra
not voting is for morons
Mamdani v Cuomo
Magyar v Orban
HELLLOOOOOO???
@benroyce @JustRobForNow @evoterra To vote or not to vote . . . . I stand by my statement. And while I support a very large proportion of what @benroyce says, I think it would improve his viewpoint of electoral democracy if he were to be able to stop viewing the exhibition in the lobby only through the US letterbox. When there are 30 candidates, and none of them are worth a vote, then it's a tad hard to label the non-voter a moron. It's not always a simple strategy game.
Stawman argument.
“None of them are worth a vote” is rarely true, but is the cry of the detached non-voter clinging to some misguided sense of moral clarity.
I used to be one. I’ve grown. It’s possible.
@evoterra @benroyce @JustRobForNow So, in how many political systems have you actually qualified to actually cast a vote?
Legit_Spaghetti@hoare_spitall @evoterra @benroyce @JustRobForNow
So, in how many political systems have you actually qualified to actually cast a vote?
Three so far, working on the fourth one. And I do agree with you, not voting IS making a political statement.
That statement is "I don't vote, so all you candidates can safely ignore me and continue to try and court the votes of people who actually show up to cast a ballot."
Like, that's how voting works. This isn't complicated or controversial.
ChookMother 🇦🇺🦘@hoare_spitall @evoterra @benroyce @JustRobForNow This is the beauty of compulsory voting. Every citizen qualifies.
Jay@hoare_spitall @evoterra @benroyce @JustRobForNow
I understand your position and respectfully disagree.
IMVHO the Australian system puts the friction in approximately the right place: spoiling your ballot - legal. Not showing up, illegal.
Edit: in my case, 3 — have voted in UK (FPTP, optional vote), NZ (proportional, optional vote) & Aus (proportional, compulsory vote).
I understand your position and respectfully disagree.
IMVHO the Australian system puts the friction in approximately the right place: spoiling your ballot - legal. Not showing up, illegal.
Edit: in my case, 3 — have voted in UK (FPTP, optional vote), NZ (proportional, optional vote) & Aus (proportional, compulsory vote).
Ariaflame@hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @benroyce @JustRobForNow Which means you don't have to vote for anyone, but you do have to turn up and deliberately not vote for anyone. You can draw rude pictures on the ballot if you wish. The point is that your choice is your choice.
@ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
and while i disagree with that choice, getting lazy assholes to go to the polling station is 99% of the problem
so if someone is standing there and still wants to draw a dick on their ballot, i'm fine with it, even if i disagree with it, because *most* people will at least make a fucking choice once standing there
which improves this world
@benroyce @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
To be fair in Australia it really does not take much time to vote. I'm usually in and out in under half an hour. Because we have a lot of easily accessible polling stations. We don't have to take time off work to go (it's on Saturdays). It doesn't take hours to get in. If you can't manage Saturday there is early voting. Sometimes it is laziness, but some places it's a choice between voting and survival.
To be fair in Australia it really does not take much time to vote. I'm usually in and out in under half an hour. Because we have a lot of easily accessible polling stations. We don't have to take time off work to go (it's on Saturdays). It doesn't take hours to get in. If you can't manage Saturday there is early voting. Sometimes it is laziness, but some places it's a choice between voting and survival.
@ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
and we could have that in the USA, if we fucking voted and sustained the effort, and iterated to better
rather than stupid losers not voting, waiting until centrist assholes magically become leftist as their demand before participation, thereby only helping MAGA remove their voting rights even more
Brad Macpherson@benroyce @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow I don't know whether it would help in the US or not, but having grown up in Australia with voting as a civic duty, rather than a right to be exercised or not, makes it feel different. It's a real leveller, everyone has to do it from the binman to the hippy artist to the investment banker.
The social pressure to go along and vote - and to think about what you're doing - is pretty strong. I think it's a real positive.
@brad @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
the very American "what's in it for me" is an opening for con artists appealing to vanity and malice
the sales pitch by plutocrats to bigots is "vote and i'll make people you hate- trans people, immigrants, etc suffer" and so bigots vote because their sadism is more important to them than their wallet
for the left their paid trolls go "all is hopeless, you should not vote" and cynical morons nod their head and don't vote
Over There@brad @benroyce @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow is there a “none of the above” option? Or any protest candidates in relation to any perceived lack of choice on the ballot paper?
@oftencalledcathy @brad @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
they just draw a dick on their ballot
that's legal
stupid, but legal
@oftencalledcathy @evoterra @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @brad @ariaflame @JustRobForNow
so what you do is you pick the candidate closer to you and sustain and iterate and you get meaningful change
protest votes or nonvotes essentially means "i'm fine with whatever fascist other people pick" so it's a choice to stand for entitlement and mean nothing and aid fascism's rise
and be ignored since you're telling people you don't care who wins
stupid, self-defeating
for the sake of toxic idealism
@benroyce @oftencalledcathy @evoterra @hoare_spitall @brad @ariaflame @JustRobForNow
Yup.
Both a) any meaningful change, and b) maintaining any existing bulwarks against concentration and abuses of wealth & power, necessitates; Street power/protest, organising & building parallel institutions as required, organising against AND within existing orgs such as the dominant parties, and (if vaguely functional democracy is in place) iteratively voting for candidates closer to your position etc etc
Yup.
Both a) any meaningful change, and b) maintaining any existing bulwarks against concentration and abuses of wealth & power, necessitates; Street power/protest, organising & building parallel institutions as required, organising against AND within existing orgs such as the dominant parties, and (if vaguely functional democracy is in place) iteratively voting for candidates closer to your position etc etc
su_liam@benroyce @oftencalledcathy @evoterra @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @brad @ariaflame @JustRobForNow Pick the candidate closest to you, and vote in the primaries, and push for preference voting. All of these help to avoid having to make that choice between a shit sandwich and say head cheese.
@benroyce @oftencalledcathy @evoterra @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @brad @ariaflame @JustRobForNow But yeah, when it comes to a choice between poison and something that you don’t really like very much, avoid the poison. Then, put in the work to get something better.
@benroyce @oftencalledcathy @evoterra @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @brad @ariaflame @JustRobForNow “Letting the Nazis have their way will make those other people hurt enough that they’ll put in the work to give us what we want,” has zero history of success except for benefiting the Nazis.
@su_liam @benroyce @oftencalledcathy @evoterra @hoare_spitall @brad @ariaflame @JustRobForNow
Yes. Work hard always to improve the mechanisms of democracy at various levels.
Yes. Work hard always to improve the mechanisms of democracy at various levels.
Isaac Ji Kuo@benroyce @oftencalledcathy @evoterra @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @brad @ariaflame @JustRobForNow I don't even know what they think. Is it toxic idealism? No, I don't think so.
These people are essentially Republicans. Their whole personality is "Democrats suck" so it doesn't matter who the Democratic candidate is. They'll find some reason why it's super important that this Democratic candidate sucks and that therefore they just have no choice but to help the Republican win.
@benroyce @oftencalledcathy @evoterra @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @brad @ariaflame @JustRobForNow Personally? I don't think Democrats suck. Some do, but I actually like most Democratic candidates.
But I don't demand everyone else see things that way. If you're fighting Trump, like actually fighting AGAINST Trump, then I'll stand alongside you.
I participate in Indivisible protests, and chant along chants that I don't necessarily agree with. They fight. That's what matters to me.
John Colagioia@isaackuo @benroyce @oftencalledcathy @evoterra @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @brad @ariaflame @JustRobForNow I learned from Republicans that you keep elected officials in line by writing them ON PAPER and making appointments when they're in town. For every person who doesn't provide a voice of reason, a right-wing weirdo and/or business owner happily takes that time claiming to represent the whole community.
You vote for the person you can stomach arguing with every month.
D. G. Marshall@benroyce @oftencalledcathy @brad @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
There is also what is called a "donkey vote", which is just voting for the candidates in the order they appear on the ballot paper. Which can benefit some strange choices.
For the senate, last time we had over 100 candidates, IIRC. We had the choice of voting something like our top five party choices, and then parties assign preferences. I numbered every one, to put One Nation (our MAGA) last.
@oftencalledcathy @benroyce @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow No - people will do a "donkey vote", where they write in "Mickey Mouse" or some other character; or put their ballot in the box without marking it, or draw dicks etc. on it.
At least they turned up and protested at the choices on offer. Better (I think) than the "turnout" measure for judging voter apathy since that's affected by more factors external to the individual voter.
@brad @oftencalledcathy @benroyce @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow I thought donkey vote was where they numbered from 1 starting at the top, no matter who was there?
@ariaflame @oftencalledcathy @benroyce @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow I've always encountered it as a catch-all for spoiled or pointless votes - you could well be right about that though, at least its original meaning. I'd have to look it up 🙂
@ariaflame @oftencalledcathy @benroyce @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow I looked it up - you're right, a donkey vote is as you described. I've been using the term wrong, when I've meant generally spoiling the ballot.
@brad @oftencalledcathy @benroyce @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow I double checked and yes, it's either 1 down through them all or starts with the last number and goes down. And technically it's a legal vote which is why the first spot on a ballot is picked by effectively bingo/lotto in most states. (Well all spots or at least the party order. Take little balls out of a tumbler)
@ariaflame @oftencalledcathy @benroyce @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow It's a while since I last voted in Australia; one easy way to dilute the impact of donkey voting would be to randomise the order of candidates on ballot papers. You'd have as many versions of the paper in an electorate as there were candidates, simple enough with computers.
@brad @benroyce @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow I wish there was a way to put more pressure on that last bit - to think about what you’re doing. More thoughtless voters may counteract the actively-malevolent voters, but it is, by definition, chancy.
@su_liam @brad @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
at least in the usa, so many don't vote, and the balance between the thoughtfully involved and the MAGA zombies so close, convincing only a tiny percentage to vote could swing elections
Я⊛ḶḶ model ☭@benroyce @su_liam @brad @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
*if* we have elections. these reprobate turds still have over two years at the helm. plenty of time to wreck this ship on the rocks of nuclear havok.
@saltywizard @su_liam @brad @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
as long as you fucking vote
cynicism is acceptance
don't give into it and not vote
@benroyce @saltywizard @su_liam @brad @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra
The cynics think they're being highly intelligent with their cynicism.
"What's the point. They're all the same. It makes no difference etc."
They have the rational abilities of flat earthers but think themselves to be some sort of savant.
@benroyce @brad @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow “But if you’re mean to them, they might turn against you,” what are they going to do? Not vote? They’re already doing that. Vote for the MAGAt scum? What’s a person who votes for nazis ‘cause some lefty said something mean to them? A nazi. It’s that simple. If you choose to be a nazi ‘cause I made you cry… cry harder!
Colm Ó Donnchadha@ariaflame @benroyce @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
30mins still seems very long, is it including travel to and from the polling place?
In Ireland 5 mins from in the door to leaving the polling place would be longer than usual voting time
@ColmDonoghue @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
i won't judge
considering what we have in this stupid fucking country the USA
😩
kit@benroyce @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
I think this is why a lot of people don’t vote.
Voting, while necessary, is almost the least part of a functioning democracy. That so many people do not vote shows the failure of those other parts.
True, many of those failures are intentional, designed to suppress the vote, or reduce choice to something meaningless.
But it is those other failures that need to be addressed if we want people to feel voting is purposeful. Without that, there is no reason to expect them to try.
@hypostase @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
the fix you seek is provided via them voting (and other efforts)
the failure to understand that and not have the heart to do what is necessary is the failure
to somehow mollify heartless people who have given up on the fight is not our responsibility
some of these people are lying trolls, some have wound up in cynical helplessness sincerely
but they must fix themselves
they can seek aid from those who will listen
@benroyce @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
The fix I seek is provided by education and community building. By challenging the politicians who ask for votes with questions that show a depth of understanding of the issues.
It is not provided by voting and praying that the next representative will somehow do the right thing.
Indeed many people are just trolling the field, as part of the misinformation campaign. It takes genuine connection and organisation to overcome that.
Sure, in Hungary a lot of people held their noses and voted for what was available, rather than what they might actually have wanted, but it’s also pretty clear that that took organisation and grassroots connections as well.
I just hoping that it doesn’t take the US another 16 years to figure out how to do that.
@hypostase @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
we can build communities but if we ignore voting the fascists eventually have all power and just machine gun us laughing
as mamdani showed, you just fucking vote
you're asking for centrist assholes and MAGA fascists to magically turn left before you vote
that doesn't work
what you do is you ignore them
vote for real leftists in the primaries
and replace them
your ask is huge and slow
my ask is tiny and effective
@hypostase @ariaflame @hoare_spitall @jaystephens @evoterra @JustRobForNow
nevermind we can do what you're asking *and* vote. a vote is a tiny tiny ask
Darker Knight
Robin Barton@hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra
a nonvoter is a fucking moron
100%
always
perfect doesn't exist
you pick the person closest to you and iterate
that is the only way you improve the world
not choosing only means "i don't care"
and if someone doesn't care, considering the issues we are facing today, fuck such a piece of shit
DeanFarrell@benroyce @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra Those who would sacrifice good for perfect don't deserve the right to vote.
@DeanFarrell @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra
if they don't vote, their ability to vote will indeed be taken away from them, considering who they are letting win by not voting
Deb Nam-Krane@DeanFarrell They deserve the right to vote. What they don't deserve is to complain about what happened when they didn't vote. (But they will...) @benroyce @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra
Stuart Longland (VK4MSL)@benroyce @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra Non-voter is a fine-earner here.
AEC officials knock on your door asking for you to "please explain" why you didn't show up. Fine issued if you don't have a valid excuse.
@vk4msl @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra
and you have ranked choice voting (what you call preferential voting)
i am very jealous of australia
@benroyce @vk4msl @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra Lines are not long, and there's usually some nearby bake sale or democracy sausage. And it's all on paper ballots so we don't have to worry about machines getting hacked.
@ariaflame @vk4msl @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra
and in this usa they make handing people water in long lines waiting to vote illegal
what a fucked up country
Wokerati@benroyce @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra
I can see both sides of this argument, because it implies an understanding of politics that billionaires spend billions trying to prevent normies from understanding.
For instance trump being 'anti-war', it was obviously BS, but it was also stronger then any statement made by Kamala on Palestine.
Parties also need to earn votes and not just rely on gaining support for being the least worse option.
@wokerati @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra
it's not true the democrats suck therefore leftists don't vote
the truth is the left doesn't vote, therefore the democrats suck
"i'm going to wait until centrist corporatist assholes magically turn into leftists, then i'll vote" is just a stupid joke
you vote, in the primaries, and replace them
that's the way it works
looking to the democratic establishment as your cue before acting is bullshit. ignore them. replace them
proof:
mamdani
🇩🇪 🇺🇦 🇨🇦
@benroyce @wokerati @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra Old grumpy guy comments.... everyone makes this too complicated.
1. US Leadership sucks (any disagreement?)
2. Both major political parties are complicit (any disagreement?)
3. You think things should be better (any disagreement?)
If 1-3 make sense... then do something, do anything just don't sit on your ass (excuse my French).
Have a nice day and stop whining.😉
Tody Motmot@ManyRoads @benroyce @wokerati @hoare_spitall @JustRobForNow @evoterra
Hell no. I like the fact Dems fought against MAGA. Giving more people healthcare, letting the FBI do its job and go after sex traffickers, and stopping genocides is not complicit.
I really don't care how much the mainstream news led by billionaires told you to hate the people who were trying to raise taxes on the rich.
You're working to amplify MAGA's propaganda without even stopping to think. You're not helping.