Mastodawn

M. K. | 37,000 Mar 5

🅰🅻🅸🅲🅴 (🌈🦄)

Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...

"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"

In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.

The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.

I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.

Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.

¹ not all men

The Orange Theme Feb 4

@alice I'm sorry, that sounds endlessly exhausting and frustrating.

Random Damage 🌻Feb 4

@theorangetheme @alice it is

@alice
Honestly, I hear so many storys and I see them myself in team meetings, etc. And I always realize: "That's not me, I don't do that."

But I do. In my case it is related to my ADHD, that I feel the urge to burst out whatever I have in my mind before I forget about it because there are butterflies on the window!

After I realized that I started to observe myself, try to suppress impulses. Medication helps and I think I have this more under control than ever before.

Not because I count my self as "not all men", but because I realized "actually, me too". So thank you and everyone else who spoke up. Please don't stop. And everyone, please don't stop listen, even if you are not all whatever. Because it could be you anyway.

@momo @alice
Long reply
We all do it; we are human. Things we are passionate about we can't help ourselves.

What I am **trying** to learn to do when I interrupt someone else, and I realize it during - I apologize. "Sorry for interrupting, I got ahead of myself. Please continue". If I realize afterwards, I apologize as well of course.

Attempting to suppress yourself is not going to end well. Learning to identify your thoughts and actions - and redirecting them works far better and is healthier.

Best thing to do however? Call out when others do it. Friendly at first

"sorry {person talking over another}, love the enthusiasm you are bringing. I would like to hear what {original person} wanted to say first so I have the full context for your reply."

"Pardon, I can only follow one person speaking at a time - and {person} wasn't finished yet. {Person}, please continue"

Yes, there is irony in talking over someone is talking over another. Sometimes you can also signal it by just friendly looking at them and once they are finished - redirect back to the original person and apologize for the interruption.

In general, don't escalate. But also support the person being talked over originally. If they are standing up for themselves, acknowledge it with a curt nod or say something like a "quite so, please continue where you left if you would"

I know that as ND people we can do this unknowingly. That's why I am very much open about my ND. I mention it at times, I'll ask people to let me known if I'm infodumping (like now, sorry)

That way, they'll know it's not meant in a bad way.

If you genuinely want to alter your behavior in this regard you could look into Cognitive Behavior Therapy with a certified medical professional - or use a little notepad.

Whenever I hear something I want to reply to I make a note quickly and hold out my hand (or gently raise a finger)

It signals I want to say something in a fairly unobtrusive way, and allows me to collect my thoughts a bit AND doesn't interrupt the original speaker.

Right, apologies for this wall of text. This is a bit of painpoint for me as over the years I have issues with talking over people and being talked over as well (still do) But things are better now :)

Thank you for my reading my Feditalk on talking over other people. I could go on but my tea is getting cold.

/end

Sass, David Mar 5

You know @Aprazeth I'll take these and write them into my little notebook full of smart things which I could say but didn't know before how to say. Keep them comin!

I am usually the one who gets interrupted or just staying quiet waiting for my turn until they turn already ended.

I'm glad the posts are of some use/reference! I deal with the same challenges as well, as I get talked over a lot as well, so the above is tuned and based on what I've found that works - as well as advice I've gotten over the years (that I found to work)

And I do tend to get on my little soapbox from time to time, so I'm sure there'll be more coming ;)

@Aprazeth @momo @alice > Whenever I hear something I want to reply to I make a note quickly and hold out my hand (or gently raise a finger)

It becomes obnoxious when things move fast enough with enough points that one barely has the time to keep notes (nevermind come up with coherent & well-constructed answers) and then meeting is adjourned.

It's annoyingly common, in my experience, and why many things would be better determined over the span of a few days of message board threads.

Cyberspice Feb 5

@Aprazeth @momo @alice Some of us did it at first but having lots of blokes talking over us has meant we soon leant not to. That’s the gender difference. Women get quietened and men don’t.

@momo @alice > In my case it is related to my ADHD, that I feel the urge to burst out whatever I have in my mind before I forget about it because there are butterflies on the window!

This is an example of an accessibility challenge where the possibility of collisions in speech vs writing is actively harmful. Perhaps medication does help with your focus and memory, but if it doesn't then you're just out of luck (which is bad).

(Of course being able to type fast-enough can in itself be a difficulty.)

Mark ⛵️🏳️‍🌈Feb 4

@alice sadly that sounds about right 😔

On a similar note, the nicest, most pleasant IT project I ever worked on was run entirely by women. Despite it being the first one any of them had been involved with it was an absolute delight compared to the normal macho pissing contest nonsense.

This is also why most of my friends are female, enbies or trans - I just find most (but not all) men hard work.

AutistiCritic Feb 4

@alice That’s the sort of combative macho bullshit that has infected political discourse and the media. No wonder no-one in charge has any idea what the fuck they’re doing. 😔

@benjamincox @alice all those "big picture" people who dont want to be bothered with pesky things like reality

@alice assertiveness is a big part, but I think not just that. Men¹ do not listen to women. So tha man who repeats your idea first and explains it to you back gets the credit from the others. The only thing that corrects them is if another man points out their behaviour. But it is ingrained so much that even calling out does not stop it from occurring again. Next time, they do the same. 💔

Juniper 🏳️‍⚧️🌲Feb 4

This became a big thing at my previous job. There was a meeting of essentially the whole program I was on. Way bigger than it needed to be, so most of us were just spectators. I don't remember what issue they were trying to solve, but a woman made a suggestion, it was ignored, a little later a man repeated the suggestion, and it was taken seriously. The most notable thing about this incident is that another woman called it out in the same meeting, and that actually started a good discussion. Of course, afterwards a bunch of guys were rolling their eyes and saying "oh, I guess we have to be careful what we say now." I was not out at work at that time, so there was an extra layer of discomfort for me. But the fact that this happened and was called out publicly among the higher levels of the company seemed to empower women there to speak up more.

Anyia, geeky 🏳️‍⚧️ girl Feb 4

@alice one thing I've noticed is how some people never pause to give anyone else even a chance to speak. As if there's a filibuster that needs to be kept going uninterrupted or something. And if you don't counter what they're saying when is wrong they consider you to have agreed whatever incorrect statement it is. Quite tiring.

Like you're on a CSMA/CA medium, but some people treat it as CSMA/CD but don't bother with the CD aspect of it 🤷‍♀️

(That's Carrier Sense Multiple Access, with either Collision Avoidance or Collision Detection, for those not in the networking world)

Seán Fenian Feb 4

@anyia @alice Love the analogy!

(It could be worse. Never forget Appletalk, the protocol where address assignment is based on jabbering....)

Anyia, geeky 🏳️‍⚧️ girl Feb 4

@zakalwe I didn't think that was much worse than, after having asked reception for the right hall, then entering and asking "Is this seat free?". Mind, I never did do any native AppleTalk

@alice I think that's very accurate. That's what I remember from the times I was in the male dominated spaces.

@alice The act of interrupting someone who is speaking without having a something to contribute just makes you look stupid, doesn’t it? I’m clearly not cut out for the corporate world.🎉

@alice I hate it and I hate being part of the system that normalizes this behaviour. 😔

Spiritual Annie ☮️Feb 4

I was a road construction inspector starting back in the 70's and had to try to assert myself over older male contractors who didn't want me there. My coworkers did, thankfully, and gave me the same tips.

I learned my own style, though. I controlled their payments and used to hint at SNAFU's. And sometimes their material wasn't up to code. 😏

When I moved into Admin, I learned to be quiet. Ultimately, they learned to ask my opinion after the roar settled because I knew my shit. 😁

Semitones Feb 4

@alice boo! Fire the CEOs! Hire Alice!

The Orange Theme Feb 4

@semitones @alice Are y'all hiring? :3

Jason Parker (he/they)Feb 4

@alice As a generally soft-spoken ¹, I see the same things pretty often. It's hard to demonstrate that yes, I actually do know wtf I'm talking about.

Could you imagine how successful some companies would be if this mediocrity were replaced?

Seán Fenian Feb 4

@north @alice Walk softly, and carry hard facts.

FoolishOwl Feb 4

@alice It's definitely something that men are trained to do. I've had people criticize me for not being "assertive" enough, in just this way. In workplaces, though, I'm usually low enough in status that I'm not expected to say anything in a meeting.

I have also been criticized for talking over people, to be fair. I don't mean to; I just want to complete a thought. In a lot of conversations I feel like I'm waiting for my turn, and I don't recognize when my turn is over.

EDIT: removed a bad figure of speech.

@alice I'm a man who has gotten the same feedback. I think my tendency to listen is a strength and I'm not interested in getting ahead by running my mouth.

@alice related https://mastodon.social/@cmconseils/116013203022803611

Howard Cohen Feb 4

@alice I think you are right.

Men need to unlearn this when we leave the schoolyard and enter the adult world.

I think part of the resistance to learning this is imposter syndrome. Young men are full of fears they often cannot share. Those fears get paved over with hostility and domineering, which they pretend is strength. By the time they end up in a meeting with female peers, they have an inescapable need to prove themselves. Their inexperience leads them to believe respect and admiration is a zero-sum game. At that point, any chance of being a good team mate with women is practically lost.

It doesn't have to be that way. But, I'd say it usually is.

I've seen men who respect women in meetings. I learned to do it better, from them. It can be learned, and then things are so much better. A team fighting itself doesn't win very often. More importantly, life is shitty when it's full of conflict, and much more joyful when everyone feels good about their part in a team effort. The team wins together.

@hoco @alice > Men need to unlearn this when we leave the schoolyard and enter the adult world

Maybe normalizing it at all at any point shouldn't be a thing?

I for one struggle with determining whether pauses of any particular length for breath, emphasis, unknown neurotypical weirdness, or anything mean one can talk or not. People proactively being assholes about it doesn't help.

Consequently I consider written communication to be vastly superior. Collision is intrinsically impossible then. (Assuming awful formats like linear chats aren't used.)

Legit_Spaghetti Feb 4

@alice Wait, you were a tech exec? But... you're capable, smart, and have good takes. You also seem like a really decent person who cares about others. How did you last even five minutes in the churning gyre of madness that is the executive circle of hell?

Mother Bones Feb 4

@alice Yeah that is the case and I have done this exact thing too. BUT, it IS a gender thing because we are privileging the gender socialization of men. Because the thing is, why are we asking women to spend OUR energy leaning into men's socialized habits of domination in conversation, instead of asking men to lean into learning how to chill the fuck out and be more cooperative conversationally? (They might even like it better!)

There was a good NYT article about this a few years ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/10/opinion/sunday/feminism-lean-in.html

Opinion | Enough Leaning In. Let’s Tell Men to Lean Out.

The assertiveness movement has taken a male-defined value system and sold it back to us as feminism.

The New York Times

@_L1vY_ @alice (is 2019 still "a few years ago?)

Mother Bones Feb 4

@aliide @alice Yes but I am the wrong person to ask, because in my mind, 1998 is still "a few years ago" 😂

Lana The Raven Feb 4

@aliide @_L1vY_ @alice I'd say so. But I define "a few" to be any number of m&ms/skittles/etc. greater than two that I can comfortably fit in my closed hand, so about a dozen is still "a few" in my book. Some may disagree. Or have larger or smaller hands.

@_L1vY_ @alice this is really interesting to hear from my UK perspective, ive been a software engineer for 20 years, there hasnt been a high proportion of non-white-male enginers throughout my career, all of the women ive encountered have been better leaders, designers and programmers overall.

Leto Fregar Feb 5

@_L1vY_ @alice Probably because the centuries of patriarchy have shaped current business structures.

This is not an excuse! Being aware of the history just helps to understand the issue.

In this case change is necessary, but fighting expectations shaped over decades will take time as well.

It is also a question of business type: I worked in marketing companies (85% women, meetings still dominated by dominance and hot air) and now industry (no nonsense attitude, even though 90% men).

@alice
Right, I just sipped my tea after that little toot-bonanza I typed (sorry)

I loathe that this toxic aggressive shouting match conversation style is considered the norm and accepted.

I have been know to interrupt those interrupting me or others and go "can I/they finish first please?" But oefff doing that drains me emotionally, and yet I do it. It's important

🫂 I'm so happy to know you now are in a happier, healthier place. And sorry you had to endure it before. Big fluffy hearts!

Clifton Royston Feb 4

I regret that it is necessary to footnote that.

I don't say that I regret you did, nor that I regret "you thought" that, because needing to do that it goes right to the heart of the main point.

The Sleight Doctor 🃏🍉Feb 4

@alice Sorry to hear about your shitty time at work.

A lifetime working in the helping professions - including with folks who might politely be described as "challenging" - has given me an acute nose for the type of person (usually but not always a man!) who only respects dominance behaviours, and walks all over those who don't display them. If that's the type of person I'm dealing with, that's how they're gonna be treated - in and outside of work!

But it must be a lot harder for women. 😔

Hazel Quantock Feb 4

@alice This is definitely a thing, but men talk over me more post-transition than they did pre-transition, even though I'm significantly more confident and assertive these days.

I think men, even timid men, are perceived to be assertive, and women are not. Women can compensate for this by becoming particularly assertive but I think you have to actually be more assertive than most guys to be perceived equally. And then you're in danger of being labelled bossy.

@alice Oh that is an interesting observation and I’m sure it holds truth. But also, I *am* being talked over more now I am femme presenting. And I haven’t suddenly become more demure.

@alice
In my experience, many men actually expect women to just listen to them/validate them and it's different from just talking over other men.

For many men this just seems to be how they think you "talk to women".
No intentional malice, just having it normalised so much, that it would take active effort to question it and realise what is happening.
Since pushback is rare, it's easier to just find another woman to talk to and avoid women who don't play along.

1/

@alice
You can probably find a lot of accounts, that have a suspiciously high rate of how many female to male presenting accounts they talk to(and probably get blocked by).

They know on some level, that they couldn't talk to other men in this way, because the conversation is one-sided, only taking their needs into account.

2/2

🏳️‍🌈🎃🇧🇷Luana🇧🇷🎃🏳️‍🌈Feb 4

@alice And when you’re assertive as a woman they call you aggressive

Talisyn Tailfeather Feb 4

@alice Mansplaining is just what men do to other men ... all the time.

Jay Grant 🏳️‍⚧️Feb 4

@alice the flip side of that, though, is if you're judged as being "too assertive" you'll get labeled a bitch and also ignored.

I've gotten labeled a bitch a lot

I can confirm that some men will talk over other men.

Two of my friends* will repeatedly talk over me and will often not let me finish what I'm talking about. So if I want to say anything I need to interrupt.

*Not really friends

Seán Fenian Feb 4

@alice "You're not being obnoxious enough."

Obnoxiousness is a hell of a thing to respect. But there's an awful lot of cultural conditioning for men to be loud and obnoxious and dominating.

"But this is how you get all eyes in the room on you!"

Dude. My dude. The eyes I want on me are NOT those of the people who gravitate to the loudest in the room. I want the people who think.

@alice I wonder whether it's OK to say that they may have been giving you well-intentioned advice about how the game is played, despite the fact that the game fucking blows. And it assumes that you want to play the same game that they're playing, which is again a huge assumption. Having been on both the assertive and less-assertive side, the advice might not be bad advice... if you want to follow their definition of success (which is assumed to be everyone's - more money and/or power). And I suspect many would choose to play a different game, if they thought one was available. But assertiveness/confidence is almost the only character/personality trait that is selected for, as you get into the upper echelons (again, not an endorsement from my end, just an observation that feels true-ish). Reminds me of this lovely meme I just saw: https://mastodon.social/@wildsown/115999715177871594

toadjaune Feb 4

@alice that's depressing (and infuriating)

Like, it's not that they're neck-deep in their bias and haven't realized, or that they don't care ; they ACTIVELY PURSUE THIS BEHAVIOR ?!

That's so, so much worse !

Jason Thornbrugh Feb 4

@alice I've been in corporate for 25 years. You understand this nonsense perfectly. Preach.