Mastodawn

Dagnabbit, Pascaline! 💥Feb 26

Yeeees pleeeeease let's do this, world!

Joachim Heistinger 🌶️Feb 26

@benroyce I live close to the .hu border and I know some Hungarians.
They are as stupid as Austrians, Muricans or Russians.

Mark my words when it comes to elections.

hot tran*sexual menace Feb 26

@carbon_compound @benroyce there's really no need to paint just some nations with a broad brush. Stupidity is an ubiquitous human trait.

There's reasons why people in Eastern Germany, Hungary and Slovakia voted for hard right parties. But i feel like it is currently very visible demonstrated that hard right parties lead down a path that fails even harder on these reasons...

hot tran*sexual menace Feb 26

@carbon_compound @benroyce (hard agree on the Austrians thou hahaha)

I don't think calling people "lazy entitled lumps" is going to make them more likely to vote.

i don't think anything we could ever say will get them to vote

so therefore we will indeed shame them, so anyone else listening who is not a lazy entitled lump does vote

Well, that's definitely a strategy, and you've thought about what you think will be the most effective, and I've got no evidence that it isn't, so go ahead I guess (not that you need my permission).

Me, I'm going to go ahead with trying to show people it's in their own best interests to vote. Maybe between the two of us we'll cover all the bases? :shrug:

so let's say you take one of these typical assholes whining loudly about how they won't vote until {X} happens

say everyone bends over backwards and makes {X} happen

they still won't vote. they will invent a new reason not to

this is their identity. making dramatic displays of their "moral superiority" to justify their indolence, entitlement, and alienation

of course, morality without action isn't morality at all, it's just ego masturbation

they're losers. literally: they lose

Yeah, the ones with a ransom list can just drift away for all I care - they will never accomplish anything, and I'm done wasting my time on them.

But there are still lots of other people who don't vote for other reasons: they're busy, they haven't got the habit, they don't think they can make a difference, despair, etc. And I do not want us speaking shorthand and saying "fuck non-voters" to push any of those away...

... So me, I'm careful in my language. I'm happy to refer to the first type as "pretty prancing purity ponies", or "the folks who didn't vote against the Nazis", but I want to leaves an opening for the second type, and make it clear that they are welcome to join in.

Right. And the question is what is effective to achieve that

Validating bad behavior doesn't achieve that

We're talking about adults here

The idea that there is someone who goes "well i'm not going to vote because someone was mean on social media" is not a serious proposition

Littterer A is shown a video where someone litters out their car window and someone walks up and soothes their precious feelings and otherwise validates their behavior

Litterer B is shown a video where someone litters out their car window and someone walks up and smashes their side mirror while other people cheer

Which will make the litterer think?

Your problem is your false assumption people who don't vote have a valid reason. They don't. They're just entitled lazy assholes

We disagree.

@jztusk of course we do

So you go out there and validate and soothe the precious feelings of lazy entitled assholes and let me know how it goes. Good luck

Hans van Zijst Feb 26

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 I'm afraid both Putin and the orange knuckle dragger will help their brownshirt buddy to win the elections...

Just as I don't think the midterms are going to be real. If they take place at all...

the vote is controlled by the states

i am not registering my disagreement with you i am registering my disgust with you

if you say the midterms aren't real, people have no reason to vote, therefore MAGA wins

is this what you want?

are you trying to help trump on purpose?

i don't think so

but *you are* helping trump with such ignorant cynical and cowardly words

do not say these lies about the midterms ever again

Hans van Zijst Feb 26

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 Wow, easy, we're on the same side, we both want MAGA dead and buried.

What I'm trying to say is that these are different times, things have changed. Both Putin and Agent Orange see Orbán as their friend, and none of those three give a rat's ass about law or democracy.

Putin and Orbán have been playing dirty for years, there is no reason to assume the Tantrum Toddler is any different. Especially because he already promised that "you won't have to vote again, it's all arranged".

More recently he suggested the midterms were unnecessary, the Republicans should cancel them, and the state (i.e. he and his henchmen) should take over the elections in blue states. And what about the "find me enough votes" and seizing Georgia ballots?

I don't trust Krasnov, and I'm afraid that if the US people do, they will be lulled into accepting a red victory in November.

But if his popularity keeps free falling like it does now, he'll understand he can't get away with stealing the elections, so he'll cancel them completely.

A state of emergency would do, right? So I expect him to start a war in Iran. No, wait, not a war but a special military operation. If it goes well enough to boost his popularity, that's enough. And if not, he uses it to cancel (no, wait: postpone) the elections.

You got to understand that he and Putin are the same creepy, untrustworthy bastards. Only difference is that Putin has a brain of his own.

Waiting to kick this orange menace out because "the midterms will do that" seems fatally naive...

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Feb 27

don't worry about it hans, i'm a hothead, i yell at everyone

in venezuela they still vote, and there the system in genuinely fucked

(not in any way trying to justify what the USA did in venezuela, just saying that venezuela's voting is rigged to high hell)

you have to vote. always. period

i'm just angry at any hint of a rationale that says voting is pointless

it's never pointless

the people of venezuela know. americans need to grow the same backbone as venezuelans

Hans van Zijst Feb 27

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
don't worry about it hans, i'm a hothead, i yell at everyone

I know you do, I'm not worried 😉

And yes, you vote, every time always, that's a democratic duty. The people have no power if they don't control the power. You don't take a taxi without telling the driver where you want to go. If you do that, you look pretty silly when you complain you didn't end up where you wanted to go.

But this taxi driver isn't interested in where you want to go to, he sets his own destination. Are you going to wait until he stops, or do you pull the handbrake and drag him from behind the wheel?

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Feb 27

nah

it's more like a bus

we don't get the perfect location we want, we always only get somewhere nearby in approximation

and if we don't take the bus, because we want the bus to stop exactly in front of our house, then we're arrogant fools who aren't going anywhere

Hans van Zijst Feb 27

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 Hehehe, you might have stolen that analogy from me 😉

But true, you'll never end up exactly where you want to go, but this bus driver is drunk and has already hit several cars. Do you remain silent and hope you reach your destination in one piece? Or do you force him to stop, and hold him down till the police arrive?

This isn't a "what do you think of my driving?" situation, this is "oh shit, this asshole is going to get all of us killed!"

See the damage he's already done in one year: a trade war with the rest of the world (illegally, says the SC), destroyed the US reputation among its allies, stopped all aid to Ukraine while cozying up to Putin, sent his thugs out to harass, arrest, deport and even kill people, goes after newspapers, universities and political opponents, openly accepted bribes and refuses to release the Epstein files.

Just to name a few things, the list is much longer then that. You have a convicted felon at the helm, one who has a long history of breaking the law, lying, cheating, stealing and being a pig.

There's nothing he won't do to stay in power, and the longer he is allowed to stay in power, the more he digs himself in.

It's easy to elect a dictator, it's hard to get rid of him once he's in control.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Feb 27

we elected biden in 2020

hungary might get rid of orban in april

is your message to the usa and hungary to give up, it's not worth even trying?

i don't think it is

but you have to see that that is the implication of your argument

Hans van Zijst Feb 27

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
is your message to the usa and hungary to give up, it's not worth even trying?

No, exactly the opposite! I hope you step it up and kick the orange SoB on the street now, and not wait for elections.

And I know those words imply radical actions. I hate violence, but sometimes it's the lesser evil...

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Feb 28

what we have to do is vote, amongst other things, but voting is key

we resort to violence if the vote is denied

but you want blood in the streets *first*?

what the fuck?

hans you're completely nuts on this topic

Hans van Zijst Feb 28

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 You're allowing him the time to dig himself in, by quietly waiting for what you expect will happen in more than half a year from now. Call me nuts, but I'm afraid you don't see the urgency of the matter.

The Gleichschaltung is in full swing, ICE is completely above the law, Congress is being bypassed, Orange has more than once promised to meddle with elections and he's about to start a war with Iran.

Play by the book at your own peril. And that of the rest of the world. You'll make future generations wonder why "they didn't stop him in time".

(With "you" I don't mean you personally, but the US people as a whole, of course)

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Feb 28

hans i'm not a peacenik. if it comes to violence it comes to violence

my problem with you is tactical ineptitude

so listen, and learn:

before the vote, no one knows what someone is shooting for. and so they're isolated, and they're put down

after the vote, if the vote is denied, and people start shooting, then everyone knows why, and they all join in

do you see hans?

if you go to violence you better know damn well what the fuck you're doing. and you don't

think hans. or you're dead

Hans van Zijst Mar 1

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 Ok, we are probably not going to agree on this.

You want to wait for a good reason before unleashing hell on the nazis, I think that that will give them enough time to prepare.

Just as Orange calls the war he started in Iran a "preemptive strike", I believe the US people should preemptively remove MAGA from power: to remove a threat before it can do its harm.

I believe you seriously underestimate the urgency for eliminating this very rapidly growing cancer, it's spreading way too fast to allow it another 8 months.

Then again, I'm not a US citizen, maybe I'm the one who underestimates factors that I'm not even aware of. And I'm not the one who would be risking his life in the revolt.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Mar 1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinus_van_der_Lubbe

You're Dutch, right?

let me tell you of the story of a Dutchman

Marinus van der Lubbe

he set the Reichstag Fire. he thought like you

the response was he gave the Nazis an excuse to seize all power

"unleashing hell"

i agree. if they deny the results of the vote. before that, you get isolated attacks that Trump will use as an excuse to seize more power

do you see the problem?

violence isn't the problem. *stupid* violence is. and that's what you're proposing

Marinus van der Lubbe - Wikipedia

Hans van Zijst Mar 1

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 Of course I know Van Der Lubbe, I mentioned him when Charlie Kirk was killed. I called that MAGA's Reichstag Fire moment.

But no, setting fire to a building isn't what I think should be done, and I like to think I'm not the simpleton that Van Der Lubbe was.

But let's conclude this discussion by accepting that we have a different idea of what needs to be done, and particularly about when.

Let's give a positive spin to it. I'm convinced we agree on one thing: we both hope I'm wrong 😉

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Mar 1

i will set aside my hothead loudmouth desire to continue arguing, and yield to your noble sentiment 😁

Idaho buckeye Feb 26

@benroyce not sure you can actually vote out facism.

@idahobucks

who won the 2020 us presidential election? and who was president at the time?

thank you to everyone who showed up and voted then

you agree?

so get the fuck out of here with your cowardice and premature capitulation

vote, you spineless asshole

if fascism does destroy us democracy, it will be because of MAGA, and meek submissive fear-addled weak whiners

you CAN vote out orban

you CAN vote out trump

you CAN vote out fascism

fuck this weak whiny defeatism

Idaho buckeye Feb 26

@benroyce you are missing the big picture. There is no real push back at all right now. We the people seem to think the Dems will save us which is not the case. We are in the five alarm stage now and people keep talking about voting and laws. The president doesn't worry about laws as he does what he wants like making himself billions of dollars. I have no idea what to do and don't see any real push back. Minnesota pushed back for a while and it's over even though ICE is in the suburbs right now.

@idahobucks

Do you vote?

If so good

That's what we need. Then we gradually iterate to better

Buy if you don't vote, go fuck yourself. You're the reason as much as MAGA why we are sliding to fascism

All these fucking lazy rationalizations do is serve various weaknesses and character failures that, in aggregate with other whiny losers, leads to fascism

That's it

VOTE

Moz Feb 26

@benroyce @idahobucks Pauline Hanson would like an explanation please.

The existence/election of Fraser Anning might be a salutary example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Anning

Australia has compulsory voting and a wider "universal" franchise than the US but still manages to elect and give power to utter bastards.

Fraser Anning - Wikipedia

@moz @idahobucks

I don't understand what the point is

We should all vote, right?

PS: is this the guy who got an egg to the face from a teenager?

Moz Feb 26

@benroyce @idahobucks Anning is widely hated, yes. But also voted in.

Assuming that if people who don't vote did they would all vote against fascists isn't a safe assumption. Hungary elected Orban and his government more than once, for example.

Anning is from a nice white English-speaking country so a lot of USA voters find it easier to understand. Plus Australia has compulsory voting and a wider "universal" franchise than the US does.

@moz @idahobucks

Currently we have trump specifically because not enough showed up

The general idea that fascists can still win elections doesn't mean anything

On the average, fascists have an easier time of it when less people vote

Moz Feb 26

@benroyce @idahobucks A lot of my caution comes from the US habit of letting governments pick their voters.

The strategy of yelling abuse at non-voters might get a useful outcome, I don't know your local situation well enough to know. But in general yelling abuse is a poor tactic.

@moz @idahobucks

If we're at a place where people won't vote because someone was mean on social media, we're already doomed. Such immature people unable to advocate for their own needs and wants and are that emotionally addled, if they represent a large enough part of society, it speaks of such disgusting laziness and entitlement then just say good bye to it all now

And you certainly won't get such inept losers to vote by coddling their feelings

@benroyce @moz @idahobucks

klegdixal Feb 26

I find the idea of "iterating to better" somewhat naive. Even with perfectly proportional electoral system elected individuals tend to reflect the worldview and education level of the general population.

Turnaround at the recent elections was merely the last straw. Underlying economic and social issues combined with uselessness of the Dem leadership played a much bigger role.

Even if Harris would win the problem would return in 4 years.

@klegdixal @moz @idahobucks

the problem is always there

defeating fascism is not "yay we won!" then it is all over forever. that is what is naive

it requires people to constantly vote and constantly show up

and so that is naive on my part:

that so many people "on the left" have the constitution and resolve to just fucking vote, something easy to do- relatively speaking compared to other forms of struggle

and that is the failure:

loser assholes who don't vote

they let us all down

@klegdixal @moz @idahobucks

we lose an election?

we keep going

correct?

what we get is "waah waah we lost one election. waah waah this is so hard. waah waah i give up"

fucking losers

and so fascism has it easier. *because of* people supposedly on the left. supposedly, because the real left in days of yore had a fucking backbone

that's what we lack nowadays

Drey Feb 26

@benroyce @klegdixal @moz @idahobucks 👍

@benroyce @moz @idahobucks

klegdixal Feb 26

Voting tactically on a lesser evil is better than not voting at all. But

Overton's window shifting is a real thing. And last election's bad option may be the lesser evil of the next.

Average electoral district for the Representatives is around .76 million people. Successful campaign inherently requires a lot of money, connections and favours. This favours corporate candidates over progressives and coincidentally older candidates.

Last but not least i don't think US can vote itself out of the current kerfuffle.

@klegdixal @moz @idahobucks

i don't give a fuck

all there is the good fight in this world

then you can build on it IF YOU SHOW THE WILL TO FIGHT

if you spend your fucking time making arguments for how the fight is pointless, you might as well walk up to a fascist and ask them to put you in the concentration camp now

is that really what you want?

no?

so FIGHT, fucker

NO to fucking stupid weak bullshit rationalizing defeat!

FIGHT

#VOTE

Wayne Werner Feb 26

@benroyce @klegdixal @moz @idahobucks Defeating facism isn't *just* voting out fascists. But it *includes* voting out fascists.

Vote.

Talk to people.

Stand up to your racist uncles. Not because you'll change their mind, but so that bystanders see that someone is challenging them.

Mastodon Migration Feb 26

@moz @benroyce @idahobucks

If what you are suggesting is that some folks won't vote because their feelings where hurt by someone on social media, then you seem to have identified the problem, because social media is being used by some very astute people to suppress their votes.

@mastodonmigration @moz @idahobucks

therefore, anyone who is not voting, just because of their fucking feelings of resentment, helplessness, etc:

grow a fucking backbone!

the point of a vote is to advocate for your own wants and needs effectively

the point is not to vibe on social media wallowing in self-pity and despair, while your rights are stripped away

the left of yore, in previous centuries, would look at the "left" today and smack their foreheads

so many are so fucking weak

@benroyce @mastodonmigration @moz @idahobucks

Perrin42 Feb 26

"If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice."

Rush, Free Will

Wild Eyed Boy From Freecloud Feb 26

@Perrin42 I think about this lyric quite often.

Nuwagaba Gift Feb 26

@mastodonmigration
What's the ratio of those who won't vote to those who will?

Idaho buckeye Feb 26

@benroyce @moz I have voted in every election I could since I was old enough to vote and have driven people to the polls that need transportation.

@idahobucks @moz

then BLESS YOU

you are my hero

so why the fuck would you ever downplay voting in premature capitulation, which only helps MAGA

🇺🇦 haxadecimal 🚫👑Feb 26

@benroyce @moz @idahobucks
I vote on everything that is important enough for me to study and understand. That certainly includes presidential primaries and elections. I often don't know enough about local non-partisan candidates (e.g. county coroner) to have an opinion, so I leave those blank rather than tossing a coin. I guess if my county winds up with an awful coroner, it's my fault.

@brouhaha @moz @idahobucks

sure but the #primaries coming up this year can get us real left candidates who can freeze #trump's agenda if we also show up in november in the general #election

so try to focus on that, this year at least

@benroyce @brouhaha @moz @idahobucks

Sune Auken Feb 26

Also, the chances of even very center-right dem candidates being anywhere near as awful as the MAGA are really slim. There may be a Tulsi Gabbard hiding somewhere we don't know about, but beyond that, not saying or doing Nazi s... is a fair recommendation compared to the alternative.*

* I say this as a European left-winger, meaning that even American left-wingers look quite right-wing to me.

@SuneAuken @brouhaha @moz @idahobucks

I agree with you

You're speaking of long term tactics, good strategy, a rational approach

I would prefer a real left candidate but barring that: hold the line, iterate, get real improvement the next round of voting

This is the only way to achieve anything

The lesser of two evils is still less evil

Of course for saying this we now incur the wrath of the seething howling toxic idealists

As if those assholes ever achieve anything in life except whining

@benroyce @brouhaha @moz @idahobucks

Sune Auken Feb 26

True and in this case the choice between "The lesser of two evils" is likely to be the choice between somebody at worst not that good and someone for whom "disgustingly evil" is an actually valid description - and, if anything, an understatement.