morgunkorn [anuwubis]Jul 28
𝐿𝒶𝓃𝒶 "not yet begun to fight"

"Two sexes," they say. "Any others are unnatural"

MUSHROOMS: but we have 17,000 sexes. Whoops sorry just discovered another one. Make that 17,001.

"The female of the species," they proclaim, "is the one that carries the fetus to term. Males can't get pregnant. It's unnatural."

SEAHORSES: but our males do.

"It's so simple," they declare, a little nervously, "If you were born with a penis, you're a male. Boom."

SPOTTED HYENA: but our females have penises.

"If you were born with a vaginal canal, you're a girl," they scream. "If you weren't, you aren't. End of story."

TURTLES: but our males are. and they can even breathe through them.

"Biological sex can't be changed," they shriek, self-righteously."That's just science".

CLOWNFISH: but we do it all the time

"You can pretend to be a gender you weren't born as, they gasp, assuring themselves that surely this time they will emerge victorious, "animals can't just up and change their chromosomes. That's common sense."

BUTTERFLIES AND MOTHS: but we can. explosive chromosomal macroevolution is literally a part of our lifecycle.

"But chromosomes determine biologi-"

BEARDED DRAGONS: ours are determined by the weather

"But the Bible says male and female he made th-"

BLUEHEADED WRASSE: all of us are born female

"But you can't just wake up one day and deci-"

GROUPER (MALE): we literally do.

"But gender isn't flui-"

GROUPER (MALE): sometimes we change back

"But you can't just pick what gender you're going to be on any given day!" They shriek, "It doesn't work that way!!"

GROUPER (FEMALE): ahem

Jul 26 at 9:16pmWeb
Show threadD. G. MarshallJul 26

@Lana

I wanted to make a comment like this:

"Gayness is unnatural," says only homophobic species to the 1500 known species that have gayness.

But I can't find a website that tells me how many species change sex (sequential hermaphrodites). So far, I found one that says 500 fish, but there's also shellfish, shrimp, one starfish, one eel, at least one sea snail...

And that doesn't include the species that don't change sex, but are male and female all the time (simultaneous hermaphrodites).

Show threadAurochsJul 27
@davidtheeviloverlord @Lana It's simple biology (simple biology is an oxymoron.
Show threadEfexor Zolpidem Jul 26

@Lana there's this too

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981

The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces

Children in a remote village in the Dominican Republic have an extremely unusual condition.

BBC News
Show thread𝐿𝒶𝓃𝒶 "not yet begun to fight"Jul 26
@capeta all humans begin life phenotypically female. In most of the species, that changes at some point in utero. The only difference between most of us and the guevadoces, is that happens at puberty.
Show threadArthur van der HargJul 27
@Lana @capeta Yes. This caught out some politicians when they wanted to define one’s sex as the sex at conception. They would have made us all females 😄
Show threadJoe WJul 27

@ArtHarg @Lana @capeta (me, cis het male) I really don't mind (or would have cared)....
I was called a mom once, the only dad in a group that met weekly. Once the moms realised that, they were all apologetic - but I really and honestly was OK with that.

I'm not too sure about people wilfully and repeatedly misgendering me, so this is not saying that this is OK in general or at all. Also I try not to do it.

Show threadDremmwel ar Vran RuzJul 27

@Lana
Errr no.
Humans aren't 'female first'.
Human embryos have first:
- undifferenciated gonads (neither testis nor ovary)
- precursors of both male and female ducts (namely Wolffian and Müllerian ducts)
- undifferentiated genitals that cannot be classified as 'likely female' or 'likely male', just...undifferentiated.

So please, whoever read this, STOP telling we are first female in utero. We are NOT firstly female, female is NOT the 'per default' sex, and sex determination is NOT a kind of 'let's switch that button to maleness in this female-appearing embryo'.
Sexual determination and differentiation are complex, not always understood, influenced by environment etc and that's precisely why the result doesn't fall in the concept of binary sexes.

Sorry but as you pointed with your toot, the subject is of enough importance to deserve being precise.
It's not the first time I see the 'firstly female' thing here on Mastodon. I think everyone would benefit from knowing these information, especially people who support intersex persons, because it's just the basis of why these persons exist, why binarity of sex is nonsense, why other mammals vary in sexual differenciation etc. And it will prevent any of our ennemies to point at us telling we don't know what science is
Thanks.

@capeta

Show thread𝐿𝒶𝓃𝒶 "not yet begun to fight"Jul 27

@dremmwel @capeta

"STOP telling we are first female in utero."

No.

Show threadVulpine Labs Inc.Jul 27
@Lana @dremmwel @capeta the reply guy doesn't know what they are on about
Show threadDremmwel ar Vran RuzJul 30
@Lana
So you assume to spread outdated information about sex development, that can be detrimental to the education and safety of intersex (and probably) trans persons.
This is dangerous and cannot be justified.
@capeta
Show threadAlexander The 1stJul 28
@dremmwel @Lana @capeta So...humans are "Enby first" if the gonads are undifferentiated?
Show threadDremmwel ar Vran RuzJul 28
@AT1ST
Idk if 'enby' is adapted because I understand the term more as a description of developed gonads/genitalia/gender identity. In fact, the term used in articles is mostly 'bipotential' rather than 'undifferenciated' but I find it hides the fact that the gonad/genitalia can finally 'mature' in a spectrum rather than 2 categories.
@Lana @capeta
Show threadDušan MitrovićJul 28

@dremmwel @Lana @capeta Here's a study confirming this information in mice.

https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aai9136

Show threadDremmwel ar Vran RuzJul 28
@dusnm
Precisely.
Embryos have first both precursors of male and female genitalia. One persist and the second degenerate depending on the genetic background.
Thanks for sharing.
@Lana @capeta
Show threadDremmwel ar Vran RuzJul 28

@Lana @capeta

Anyone can find schemes about this subject on this site: https://embryology.ch/en/organogenesis/genital-system/

The schemes and explanations are first written for students in medical or biological sciences, but I think they remain understandable for everyone. The site is translated into German and French.

The 'female first' hypothesis ruled for years but is now considered out of date in all scientific papers. The existence of an undifferenciated stage for gonads, internal and external genitalia in XX and XY human embryos is widely admitted now. This fact can also help to explain simply the existence of intersex persons, which would be difficult, if not impossible, to explain if embryos were 'firstly female'.
These concepts of indifferent stages and the delicate and complex genetic architecture around sex development are of importance in understanding phenotypic sex as a spectrum rather than a dual thing (even if the spectrum is heavily polarized).
In these times of growing dangers around intersex persons (and LGBTQIAA+ in general), I think it is of importance to share information that are the closest to the currrent scientific knowledge. It's easy to understand how outdated information as the 'female first' hypothesis can be turned against intersex or even trans people.
So let's try to take care of each other, learn from science and first of all, share it! :)

#intersex #genetics #embryology

Genital System | embryology.ch

Show threadTheLindenPapersJul 27

Beautifully Relevant:

https://youtu.be/nVQplt7Chos


#Sex-and-Gender-are-not-the-same #Diversity-is-natural-and-beautiful-and-cool
Sex and Sensibility

YouTube
Show threadJo with elbows up & chin upJul 26

@capeta @Lana

So interesting. I’m always amazed by how much I do not know. So much of what seems important to me is not well shared or common knowledge even about our own species. Thank you for sharing this.

Show threadTrèsFluke 🍁Jul 27
@capeta @Lana Very interesting!
Show thread❣️a standard deviant +/- gravyJul 26
@Lana 💕🦊🌞🦚🦋☂️
Show threadMichael WymanJul 26
@Lana stop bringing science into this argument — it’s unnatural.
Show thread𝐿𝒶𝓃𝒶 "not yet begun to fight"Jul 26
@mwyman the REAL argument against.
Show threadPlsik (born in 320 ppm) 🇨🇿🇺🇦🇵🇸Jul 27
@Lana @mwyman Writing arguments using letters is unnatural. Debating is also unnatural. It's natural to find a bigger stick than your opponent and hit him over the head with it. /S
Show threadSweet Home Alaberta 🇨🇦 🇺🇦 🏳️‍🌈 🏳️‍⚧️ 🇲🇽Jul 26
@Lana
This is why they cancel science: it debases their hateful lies used to control others.
Show threadJargogglesJul 27

@Lana
Okay, look, you're either born with XX or XY chromosomes...

or just X...

or XXX...

or XXY...

or XXYY...

or XXXY...

or XXXX...

or XXXXY...

or...

Show threadFrances LarinaJul 27

@jargoggles @Lana

platypus: I've got 5 of each X and Y

birds: X and Y? I have Z and W. Males are ZZ and females are ZW. Sorta the opposite of humans that way.

Show threadMichael BuschJul 28

@jargoggles @Lana

About a quarter of humans will eventually show up with mosaic chromosome variations - XX/XO or XY/XO - simply with age.

I know this because my cardiologists had me typed to rule out early loss-of-Y, because it is a risk factor for the progression of heart disease.

Otherwise nobody checks.

Show threadrevphilJul 27
@Lana lets just make this required reading
Show thread𝐿𝒶𝓃𝒶 "not yet begun to fight"Jul 27
@revphil bold of you to assume Nazis can read
Show threadAlex von KitchenJul 27
@Lana I wonder how they classify angler fish after the male has fused with the female?
Or post-pregnancy chimerism in humans?
Show threadAlex von KitchenJul 27
@Lana oh, I remembered another one: there are voles that have an X chromosome variation (called X') that overrides the Y, so they end up with X'Y female, XY male, XX female, and XX' female
Show thread𝐿𝒶𝓃𝒶 "not yet begun to fight"Jul 27
@Dangerous_beans that's incredible
Show threadTomJul 27

@Dangerous_beans @Lana

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmVX6vY0znQ

Sorry, had to put this here 😄

John Finnemore's Souvenir Programme: The Angela Fish

YouTube
Show thread🐻 Midtown Masochist (RB-050)Jul 27
@Lana Isn't the diversity of life on this planet an amazing and beautiful thing? I surely think it is!
Show threadcrowJul 27
@Lana "You can't just mix and match"

Cardinal:
Show threadHelen LHJul 27
@Lana Yes! Want to read a book that covers all this and more? Bitch by Lucy Cooke. 😁 https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/433914/bitch-by-cooke-lucy/9781804990919
Bitch

What does it mean to be female? Mother, carer, the weaker sex? Think again. Whether it's the female lemurs of Madagascar, dominating the males of their species both physically and politically, the female albatross couples, hooking up together to raise their chicks in Hawaii, or the murderous meerkat mothers of the Kalahari Desert, the bitches in BITCH overturn outdated binary expectations of bodies, brains, biology and behaviour. In her trailblazing new book, Lucy Cooke offers a timely look at how sexist bias polluted evolutionary biology and through her riotous cast of bad-ass female animals shows the scientific patriarchy what's what.

Show threadKenny ParkJul 27
@Research_FTW @Lana Ooh, thanks. Just grabbed the audio book.
Show threadRobinJul 27
@Lana I like to think that although I didn't, couldn't, and had a difficult time concentrating when I was at school...at least I remember them telling us in 3rd year Biology that some animals change their sex in the course of their life...
Show threadholothuroidJul 27
@Lana Snails would like to have a word. Exactly one.
Show threadÐДѷє ۷ǿȵ ຣJul 27
@Lana Makes me wonder. Could it be that species get ‘trapped’ into a local optimum regarding gender and sex, possibly because ‘brains’ consume so much energy, everything else that ‘works for now’ stops evolving or is simply disabled? (The BBC article mentioned in this thread shows that we still have the genetic capabilities to change sex at a later stage)
Show threadlj·rkJul 28
@Dave_von_S @Lana It's not completely unlikely. E.g., some subspecies of groupers "lost" the ability to sex change which is linked to bigger territories with less likelihood of "not enough males/females" and allowed for bigger testes in the males.
Show threadForse (he/him)Jul 27

@Lana This kind of arguments are a lot of fun to make, because they highlight how disconnected from reality bigots are.

But also, the arguments assume that bigots *care* about reality, that they think like you and me, and so they're just "stupid" or ignorant.

This is dangerous, because it leads us to misunderstand the opponent.

They don't care.
They don't care about the arguments they make, they don't care that they're wrong, they don't care about finding out what the truth is.

They care about their ego.

They will happily hang on anything, no matter how flimsy, that allows them to feel better about themselves relative to someone they can "other".
Doesn't matter how much their leaders lie to them, how much their lives are made miserable.
As long as they are given a rationalization to feel superior in some way to someone else, to feel like they're not the bottom of the barrel, they will buy it.

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
-- President Lyndon B. Johnson

Xenophobes are not stupid, they're not ignorant, they're *desperately insecure*.

Show thread𝐿𝒶𝓃𝒶 "not yet begun to fight"Jul 27
@forse "you're doing that wrong" says every man who can't to every woman who is.
Show threadCoach Spore DieselJul 27

@forse @Lana

I didn't expect this post was intended for fully formed bigots, but rather for those who might be influenced by them.

Bigots are made, not born. We probably can't unmake them but possibly we can interrupt their formation?

That's why I think it's important to say these things. Thank you Lana!

Show threadForse (he/him)Jul 27

@springdiesel @Lana You are not wrong, there's going to be plenty of fence-sitters buuuuut...

We've been using these arguments for literal decades, and here we are. =|
Fence-sitters didn't go our way.

Perhaps we might be due for a change of strategy.

Show threadCoach Spore DieselJul 27

@forse @Lana

I wasn't talking about fence sitters.

I was talking about young people, as I used to be, as I was developing.

If we decide to be silent about these things, how does anyone ever learn?

They're worth saying.

Show threadCoach Spore DieselJul 27

@forse @Lana

I'm not vetoing other strategies. Absolutely, we need a lot more strategies.

Show threadForse (he/him)Jul 27

@springdiesel @Lana We should definitely not be silent!
Rather, we should change the approach.

Yes, address the (ir-)rational argument, but perhaps we should also call them out on not caring about reality, on not being trustworthy, on just chasing their ego, on wanting to push people down so that they can feel better about themselves, on the miserable world they are building?

Regardless, we agree that a diversity of tactics is probably necessary. =)

Show threadAnjaJul 27
@Lana I want to be Grouper.
Show threadSubcömandante ♠️ Midas 🦄Jul 27
@Lana

German rap artist #Sookee made a lovely song about "Queer Animals" (original: Queere Tiere) that's worth to mention in this context.
I hope you like it. 🏳️‍🌈✌️

Translation:
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/queere-tiere-queer-animals.html

YT Video clip
https://youtube.com/watch?v=E1zaKaP6i4o

Website:
https://sookee.de/
Sookee - Queere Tiere (English translation)

Sookee - Queere Tiere lyrics (German) + English translation: They say it'

Show threadSimon HobeckJul 27
@Lana thanks for this - it really made me chuckle.
Show threadK_L_CooperJul 27
@Lana
Y'all overlooked the preying #Evangenitals❗️☹️
Show threadHarm BotjesJul 27
@Lana
It s all about the Dogma. Yes, with a capital.
The president of the US can say there are only 2 sexes but that is his dogma.
People do have dogma's and they should have more points of view.
Show threadRob van KanJul 27
@Lana I do think Bibles are unnatural, to be honest
Show threadCroco 🇺🇦Jul 27

@Lana

The Bible is a book written in Bronze age.
Of couse they didn‘t know anything about genetics at the time.

Show threadthe kangarooJul 27
@Lana great, thanks a lot
Show threadJaime RobertsonJul 27

@Lana All this and all the variation in Humans ourselves.

As for the Bible? Ask nearly any Rabbi and they’ll tell you that Adam was not created male, but without gender. It wasn’t until after Adam couldn’t find a mate among the other animals that the ‘female’ aspects were separated to form Eve. Of course the Evangelicals won’t care about that.

Show thread𝐿𝒶𝓃𝒶 "not yet begun to fight"Jul 27
@JamesPadraicR Jewish rabbinical texts support at least 6 genders and have for centuries.
Show threadJaime RobertsonJul 28
@Lana Yep, but that’s Talmud, not Bible. Not many Evangelicals recognize anything other than the new testament.
Show threadLeelooJul 28

@JamesPadraicR @Lana
The whole "thou shall not..." thing is in the old testament.

Where as "thou shall treat your neighbours (including Mexicans and Canadians) as thyself" is the new testament.