Mastodawn

deemy Jan 6, 2024

Huge yikes.

Kagi is now partnering with Brave to power its search results — and they seem to be dismissing their users’ concerns regarding this partnership with a company that’s notorious for being led by a proud anti gay rights supporter.

Just as I’ve consistently advised against using Brave’s products, I now advise against using Kagi as long as it contributes to a homophobic business.

There can be no neutral politics when it comes to people’s rights and lives.

https://kagifeedback.org/d/2808-reconsider-your-partnership-with-brave

Niléane Jan 5, 2024

What a disappointment.

I was genuinely enthusiastic about Kagi. I've been using the service for about a month, and I would have gladly continued my subscription for what I thought was a great product.

But there's no way I'm letting any more of my money go to them if they're perfectly aware that there's a chance it could end up in the accounts of those who actively fight to have me stripped of my rights.

Niléane Jan 5, 2024

Here’s a couple of screenshots from the forum thread since it seems to be down at the moment.

1st screenshot is the initial post from a user expressing their concerns.

2nd and 3rd screenshots are responses from the Kagi team.

Niléane Jan 6, 2024

After exchanging a few DMs with Kagi founder Vladimir Prelovac tonight, it seems that they are not going to change or evolve their stance on this matter anytime soon. Welp.

@nileane So corporate will destroy his own business model?

James Savage Jan 6, 2024

@nileane I wasn’t that impressed with my trial, so now I guess I don’t have to feel bad about not converting it over at least. Their AI bot also gave me bad vibes that they wouldn’t stay focused on search either.

bazkie bumpercar | unfluencer Jan 6, 2024

@nileane lol I just learned about Kagi like 10 hours ago AND ALREADY THEY START RUINING IT 🙈

Dean, Steven Jan 6, 2024

@nileane “By including results from Brave API, we add more results to our pool, …“
but
“(currently we serve both, but this is not the plan long term)”

“…and we put users ahead of money because this costs us additional money to provide.”
but
“Brave API is cheaper than Google API. If we can figure out a way to do use it transaprently without negatively impacting search results, we can use this to lower our costs (currently we serve both, but this is not the plan long term).”

bri Jan 6, 2024

@nileane got that sense from vlad’s responses on the feedback page (especially the ‘it’s cheaper than google’s api’ one) but it’s disappointing to get confirmation that their idea of ‘humane search’ is not one that is mindful of humans.

interestingly enough, my search results felt like they got less useful in the past week or so, which coincides with the decision… not that it really matters.

i’ve deleted my account.

kira :3 Jan 6, 2024

@nileane at least this one was over quick

Joshua Apostolopoulos Jan 6, 2024

@nileane Used to pay for Kagi until about a year ago, when an image result from Stormfront appeared in my search results. I joined their discord server so I could ask if this was an intended/acceptable outcome and Vlad gave me roughly the same answer. According to him, if I didn’t want to see results from a Nazi forum showing up, I should simply block it – it is not for them to dictate. I expressed how myopic I thought their ‘principles’ were and cancelled my subscription.

Odd Orange Octavia Jan 7, 2024

@joshapos @nileane Thanks, I’ve been on and off thinking about switching to Kagi… I think I'll pass.

January Jan 6, 2024

@nileane not surprising unfortunately :(

There was a similar thread a while back talking about whether or not they should put a suicide hotline number for certain searches. They were very opposed on the grounds of "well if we start doing that then we might have to also think about covid misinformation etc and then we're getting PoLiTiCaL" (as if inaction, itself, is not political)

Alex R Jan 6, 2024

@codicil @nileane every techbro is convinced that ‘precedent’ is somehow binding on private companies (jk they know it isn’t, but they know this is an excuse that works on white cishet men who value the appearance of logic over people)

lena Jan 8, 2024

@codicil @nileane inaction is more "political" than action, while making you look much more "reasonable" and "just asking questions"

Florian Taltavull Jan 6, 2024

Martin Marconcini Jan 6, 2024

@nileane thank you for saving me the trouble.

Taffer 🇨🇦

@nileane for fuck’s sake, why do people have to be awful?

Now I need to find a non-shitty search engine that isn’t drinking LLM Kool Aid…

scy (not @ EH23)Jan 7, 2024

@nileane You mentioning the forum to be down led me to revisit it, only to find that Vlad has been doing some edits to his previous posts in the last 24 hours. Maybe you find it interesting.

https://chaos.social/@scy/111711911176276377

scy (@[email protected])

Attached: 2 images Interesting. Vlad has edited several of his posts in the (locked) Brave feedback thread. The most important change imho is adding this sentence: "Politics finding its way into tech is one of the reason we do not have innovation any more." I mean, if that isn't a red flag then I don't know what is. #Kagi

chaos.social

Scott VE3QBZ Nov 28

@nileane no surprise, they had problematic free speech absolutism as a philosophy since way back.

Metric Martyr Nov 28

@nileane Welp that's my testing of Orion done thank you very much

David Fleetwood - RG Admin Nov 28

@nileane I've been trying to warn people about #kagi for the past couple years. It's not the answer. It is not secure or private, it's results are just taken from other search engines (including Russian ones) and the owner is a "trust me bro" kind of dude.

https://www.osnews.com/story/139270/do-not-use-kagi/

Do not use Kagi – OSnews

miraculous enbybug Jan 5, 2024

@nileane too bad I almost considered paying for their service… anyway

@nileane Now that I have the ability to link my answer to a sceenshot. https://hachyderm.io/@pepper1700/111705476805979302

Pepper1700 :veritrek_gold: (@[email protected])

@[email protected] This doesn't even make sense from a business perspective, even if we forget the political part (which lets face it, all search engine that have their own index are crap, Brave is just more "honest" about it) Brave's index is extremely biased, this is going to seriously affect the quality of Kagi results, alienate a part of their user base and they are paying for it. This is corporate stupidity.

Hachyderm.io

sotolf Jan 5, 2024

@nileane that arguement about javascript is so weird, as if Brendon Eich get's royalties every time you start an interpreter or something.

@sotolf @nileane Also he only invented it because Netscape demanded it, and ot was Netscape that demanded a Java-like syntax because Java was a shiny new thing. Not to mention web scripting was the logical evolution of the web, if not him, than another Netscape or Microsoft employee would have invented a scripting language for browser.

sotolf Jan 6, 2024

@pepper1700 @nileane that too yeah, and it's a pretty horrible language anyway, just using that as an arguement is so weird, it's like they think it's about us wanting to hurt the gu. we don't, we just want to reduce his capability to hurt people in any way we can.

thegrumpyenby on hiatus Jan 5, 2024

@nileane ugh that is such a bad reply from them yikes

lick here for more info Jan 5, 2024

@nileane well, it was a good product worth the money. Too bad.

Not to brush Eich's homophobia aside at all, but Brave itself has done enough ugly things as a company to be beyond any possible involvement for a decent business.

The fact that Kagi leadership don't understand that, or pretend not to, uhh, well, yeah, I won't renew even if they backpedal on this. Disappointment is the right word, yep.

lick here for more info Jan 5, 2024

> I am closing this thread because discussion inveitably tends to go outside the scope of search, which is not what this forum is for, and I feel I explained our position to the extent it is humanly possible.

Yeah dude, no shit it goes outside of scope of search, did you think people were giving you ten bucks a month *for the product*? Reality check incoming.

Dodgy Theories Jan 6, 2024

@virtulis @nileane

Yes... Brave can't be trusted....

https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/8/21283769/brave-browser-affiliate-links-crypto-privacy-ceo-apology

Brave browser CEO apologizes for automatically adding affiliate links to cryptocurrency URLs

Brave, the open-source browser designed to prioritize privacy by blocking third-party ads and trackers, is facing criticism from users for redirecting URLs from cryptocurrency companies’ URLs with affiliate links, Decrypt reported.

The Verge

Max Melzer Jan 5, 2024

@nileane ouch! those responses are painfully terrible.😔

Trevor Gerzen Jan 6, 2024

@nileane looks like they are not open to discussion outside of a closed forum like Discord. I wish tech bros didn't always think they knew better than everyone else and used "focus" to me tune out any dissenting opinions.

unspeakablehorror Jan 6, 2024

@nileane Wow, their response to you is some real nonsense, lol. Like the Javascript thing, for example. It's one thing for them to use an API they are presumably *having to pay for*, another for someone to use a language like Javascript that no one has to pay a dime for just to use. Also the whole 'no ethical consumption under capitalism' argument they retreat to by mentioning Microsoft/Google/Yandex et al. It can in fact be worthwhile to do targeted boycotts and other actions against companies.

unspeakablehorror Jan 6, 2024

@nileane Even large companies like Microsoft and Google can have pressure applied to them, even when it's not possible to boycott them entirely. And so certainly small ones like Kagi are much easier to apply such actions to!

David Fleetwood - RG Admin Jan 6, 2024

@nileane Human rights being labeled a political view is the massive red flag in their response.

Kalamata 🏳️‍🌈Jan 6, 2024

@nileane that's a pathetic and callous response, ugh. I've been in tech for 30 years, and remain disillusioned. No societal change or growth is possible with this attitude.

lena Jan 8, 2024

@nileane "someone they may not like on a personal level"

fuck all the way off, then come back and do it again. (not you) it's not a disagreement, it's human rights.

Numeric Citizen Jan 5, 2024

@nileane just started year long subscription to Kagi. 🤨😩😳

Adrian Lorenzana

@nileane Phew, I was just about to subscribe and now I can save my money 😌

Lionel Rudaz Jan 5, 2024

@nileane is there any startup that’s not deeply rotten with toxic culture?

I’ve seen Kagi doing the headlines lately, haven’t understood the buzz about it. Was it that good? Better than @duckduckgo ?

@lionelrudaz @nileane @duckduckgo It was and curently still is, but not for long, their search engine is the least biased out there BUT they just threw money at Brave to pull in the alt-right search index.

Daniel Dickison Jan 6, 2024

@lionelrudaz @nileane @duckduckgo yeah, kagi’s search quality is (unfortunately?) miles ahead of DuckDuckGo. I believe ddg uses bing for its back end. Not sure what Kagi does but it is impressively better on most searches I’ve used it for in the past year or so.

Lionel Rudaz Jan 6, 2024

@dand @nileane @duckduckgo wow I wouldn’t expect that. I’m using DDG for years, I’m very happy with it. Now it’s when I need to go to Google that I’m shocked. So I’ll monitor Kagi most definitely.

tnypxl Jan 6, 2024

@lionelrudaz Yes it’s significantly better. I’d been using DDG exclusively for the better part of a decade. Kagi was easily better from day one.

Lionel Rudaz Jan 6, 2024

@tnypxl thanks, I wasn’t expecting that much. Let’s have a look.

Reck Jan 6, 2024

@nileane what are they actually about? "Humanize the web" sounds incredibly confusing. Are they Humanists? Or just wanting an internet centered around people's needs instead of companies

@nileane This is the first I've heard of Kagi. It's also the first I've heard of Brave being anti-gay. Boo to both! Now I know not to try either.

electron tamer in training 🍂Jan 5, 2024

@nileane big sigh

padraig Jan 5, 2024

@nileane ouch. This sucks. I didn’t use kagi a lot, but when I did it, it was always great. Also their iOS browser works very well for me. But just like I don’t use brave products, I guess I won’t use kagi now either.
Thanks for the heads up!

Jarrod Blundy Jan 5, 2024

@nileane Damn, that's a big disappointment. Hope they'll come around. Thanks for sharing.

miraculous enbybug Jan 5, 2024

@nileane Well also Brave has a weird thing with cryptocurrencies…

mathew Jan 5, 2024

@melunaka @nileane Kagi is also involved with Bitcoin, which is why I decided it wasn't an option for me.

Instead I'm using uBlacklist to block the spam from DuckDuckGo. https://github.com/iorate/ublacklist

GitHub - iorate/ublacklist: Blocks specific sites from appearing in Google search results

Blocks specific sites from appearing in Google search results - iorate/ublacklist

GitHub

padraig Jan 5, 2024

@nileane It seems like the website is down right now

notverypc Jan 5, 2024

@nileane WOW!! just started using Kagi and this is really disappointing.

Joffrey Jan 5, 2024

@nileane Moreover, Brave have also been seen doing shady practices multiple times.
This is terrible. Kinda surprised there's nothing about it on YCombinator's front page yet.

Ruby Quail Jan 5, 2024

@nileane wow this is disappointing.

Jess Perkins Jan 5, 2024

@nileane ugh thank you for surfacing this, I’ll cancel right now. And I just signed up!

thegrumpyenby on hiatus Jan 5, 2024

@nileane woah I did not know this about Brave! I switched to Vivaldi a while ago but I did use Brave for a few years. Wish I'd known!

Tony Jan 5, 2024

@nileane thank you for flagging this - I like Kagi's product but this is too much.

Alys Rujasu Jan 5, 2024

@nileane Well, I'll obviously be staying away from Kagi given this information. Are there any good alternatives at the moment?