ReiSep 3, 2023
Eugen Rochko
The fragmentation among friends that follows Twitter’s collapse is exactly the kind of problem that Mastodon and the social web solves for. Imagine that you don’t have to pick and choose which new platform to adopt, or make and maintain a million accounts—because you can follow anyone regardless of which platform they’re on. That’s our reality.
Sep 3, 2023 at 2:04pmMastodon for iOS
Show threadErik Uden 🚩Sep 3, 2023

@Gargron and it's a reality that Twitter, alongside all other centralized social networks + communication platforms, will have to come to terms with once the EU's DMA (Digital Markets Act) goes into effect.

Everything will become federated, no more fragmentation! A great course correction for the digital world.

Show threadReinout van SchouwenSep 3, 2023
@ErikUden
Have you been following what's been going on with the GDPR? With a few exceptions, companies have been largely ignoring it and getting away with it, because the respective data protection authorities are understaffed, underfunded and sometimes downright unwilling to take a decision to uphold the law.
So I'm not holding my breath for the DMA.
@Gargron
Show threadDismal Manor GangSep 3, 2023
@Gargron
You just have to find them. Currently, there is no directory service.
Show threadDomando Al Lobo 🐺Sep 3, 2023
@DismalManorGang @Gargron my fiends don't move to Mastodon. Still on Twitter and they will be.
Show threadPēteris KrišjānisSep 3, 2023
@DismalManorGang @Gargron if they are friends, they will let you know via other means.
Show threadDave VannessSep 3, 2023
@DismalManorGang @Gargron Or any functional search (beyond some apparent beta mode only available on some servers)...
Show threadSimon Müller Sep 3, 2023

@djvanness the only reason it is currently only available on some instances is because those wanted to be the testing grounds for the full-text search feature *before* everyone adopts it in the upcoming Mastodon 4.2.0 update.

If you want, you can ask your instance admins whether they want to have a hand at testing, too.

Show threadMediaFormatSep 3, 2023
@DismalManorGang there are multiple such services, see: https://communitywiki.org/trunk
Trunk for the Fediverse

Show threadFarshid Hakimy / فرشیدSep 3, 2023
@Gargron yeah but even with federation there are different competing standards that are incompatible with each other because some people think it's a good idea to make a new standard no one uses instead of making the one that already exists and everyone uses better. bluesky *hust hust*
Show threadhackbyte Antifa (friendica) 13HB1Sep 3, 2023

@farshidhakimy Mastodon itself uses activitypub in a propietary way and now some devs even wanna go on and change the AP standard......

Tell me about "making new standards"..

Show threadFarshid Hakimy / فرشیدSep 3, 2023
@hackbyte what do you mean by "in a proprietary way"?
And what's bad about making changes to the existing standard? Wouldn't the alternative to this be to fork the standard or adapt a entirely new standard?
And wouldn't different ActivityPub servers still be partially compatible?
Show threadbirdbrained Sep 3, 2023
@Gargron mastodon? I think you mean ActivityPub.
Show threadYurkshireLadSep 3, 2023
@Gargron does #mastodon stick to the #ActivityPub specs or does it extend them?
Show threadEugen RochkoSep 3, 2023
@YurkshireLad Yes
Show threadYurkshireLadSep 3, 2023
@Gargron yes it sticks to the specs or yes it extends them? I’m confused. 😁
Show threadkikSep 3, 2023

@YurkshireLad @Gargron Extensions are part of ActivityPub (well, of ActivityStreams, to be exact), so both are true. :)

reference : https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#extensibility

Activity Streams 2.0

Show threadYurkshireLadSep 3, 2023

@kik @Gargron thanks! He could have said “both” and saved me from replying.

So if mastodon implements its own extensions, any ActivityPub client has to also support those extensions, otherwise it won’t be fully operative with a mastodon instance? Or do I not understand enough about the protocol yet?

Show threadkikSep 3, 2023

@YurkshireLad @Gargron If they want to consume the specific ActivityStreams types, yes. Even in that case, most of the content produced by Mastodon is consumable as is : without implementing extensions, you would be able to list posts from a given user, and follow them for example. Plus, it's not really a problem for Mastodon, as it's the de facto reference implementation, everybody is aware of what they add. :)

You can see the extended types there : https://docs.joinmastodon.org/spec/activitypub/#extensions-not-defined-by-activitystreams

ActivityPub - Mastodon documentation

A decentralized social networking protocol based upon the ActivityStreams 2.0 data format and JSON-LD.

Show threadShiny QuagsireSep 3, 2023
@YurkshireLad @Gargron iirc they reuse post titles as content warnings instead of properly extending the spec.
Show threadbeforewisdom Sep 3, 2023

@Gargron

It doesn't always work that way in the greater Fediverse.

I tried out a nice Lemmy instance. I found a nice discussion group with one of my interests. I couldn't join it because the Lemmy instance I was on was defederated (rightfully) by the Lemmy instance I joined.

In other words, to block out handfuls of people, other people were cut off from good people, good groups.

Given the number of Mastodon admins who have shut down instances whimsically and the many more Mastodon admins frequently threatening to defederate other instances I wonder what problems will come to Mastodon in the future.

Show threadEricZhang456Sep 3, 2023
@Gargron No you don't
Show threadJames Harris - Find my bridged Bluesky accountSep 3, 2023
@Gargron But that idea requires buy-in from other stakeholders. It’s like using AppleTV where many of the apps work together to allow you to combine the shows being watched into one combined dashboard. Except the biggest streaming player, Netflix doesn’t play nice and insists you use their app. I want to see Threads follow through with their promise to Federate, but I genuinely wonder whether they will now that Threads has boomed and busted.
Show threadeve massacreSep 3, 2023
@Gargron If you find them. 🙄
Show threadOsfast Sep 3, 2023
@Gargron well... I would love an easy an accessible way to find friends and contacts on mastodon. Having to share links with everyone it a bit of a hastle. If I could just find people based on email or phone number would make loads easier
Show threadRandahl FinkSep 7, 2023

@osfast
No. That is not a good idea.

Searching for people using private data is a security risk, because someone could create a server were those search queries were abused to build a database of private contact information.

@Gargron

Show threadOsfast Sep 7, 2023

@randahl YOu certainly have a valid argument. but just saying no is easy.
How would you propose it should be done.

@Gargron

Show threadRandahl FinkSep 7, 2023

@osfast Mastodon users need to fill out their profiles thoroughly. Implementation of search is in progress, and once it gets final, I bet you will be able to find “Ursula Jensen in Berlin” or “Steve journalist BBC” or “entrepreneur robotics Jackson”

@Gargron

Show threadOsfast Sep 7, 2023

@randahl
Thats far from userfriendly for most people. it activly requires action on both ends.
Pick any person of the street they will already have enough trouble gasping the concept of the fediverse. having them joining it would be a big step in and on it self. Having a hard time finding familiar friends will only drive them away even more.
good user onboarding is so so important for getting them to stick around

@Gargron

Show threadRandahl FinkSep 7, 2023
@osfast I completely agree, usability is the key to success for Mastodon.
Show threadSimoto 🏴‍☠️Sep 3, 2023
@Gargron FEDIVERSE, not just Mastodon
Show threadΠαρδαλό Κατσίκι ✔️ Pied GoatSep 3, 2023

@simoto @Gargron

What Simoto said.
It's Fediverse, not only Mastodon.
In my humble opinion, its federation that brings people together, not concentration.

Show threadSimoto 🏴‍☠️Sep 3, 2023
@Pardalo_Katsiki  @Gargron
Show threadKonstantinos KavourakisSep 3, 2023
@Pardalo_Katsiki
@simoto sadly the #fediverse is mostly an unknown term for most people while the term "Mastodon" is more widely known. I do understand the objection, but I also understand PR and addressing a specific audience...
Show threadSheer ZedSep 3, 2023
@Gargron Just blogged about leaving "X" which is rapidly approaching the ocean floor as I type. https://sheerzed.me/2023/09/01/zed-leaves-x/
Zed leaves X.

In what could arguably be called a defining moment I have finally made the decision to deactivate my account on the platform now called “X” (formerly known as Twitter). My decision was …

Sheer Zed • Writer • Buddhist Shaman • Musician • Artist •
Show thread*_jߍyropeSep 3, 2023
@Eugen Rochko Our reality is slightly different, than you picture it. There is no Mastodon "and the social web." There is the Fediverse, where Mastodon isn't ashamed to promote it's own two biggest sites to users first, instead of showing diversity. Point is, that people, who didn't yet understand, what exactly happens on commercial social media, won't understand the difference, if you don't start to advertise it again. The former start pages recmmending a whole lot of servers to people were much more insightful in that regard. And people who didn't get it are now waiting for salvation on Bluesky ;)

#^https://fediverse.observer/ remains the best starting page there is, if flawed in other ways.
Fediverse Observer checks all sites in the fediverse and gives you an easy way to find a home from a map or list or automatically.

Fediverse Sites Status. Find a Fediverse server to sign up for, find one close to you!

Show threadkainisenniSep 3, 2023
@Gargron To me people I know IRL and people I know on social media are just separate groups. I'm not joining Instagram to follow anyone there (all platforms have already died for them).
I mean, I'd love to see people from either group appearing in the other, but I don't know how long it'll take until that will happen.
Show threadAlex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UKSep 3, 2023
@kainisenni @Gargron too many people I know IRL especially younger women, and also those who might have become "internet famous" maybe for something they do locally (eg volunteer at a community group) have had too many bad experiences from social media already, their trust is gone so they won't try any new public social network (although they still use private messenger services such as Signal, Telegram, Whatsapp etc amongst people they know IRL)
Show thread知耻而未勇Sep 3, 2023
@Gargron 对，万变不离其宗，至少一个账户，即可适应不同平台和需求。
但对于有隐藏自身身份的需求，尤其是极权国家中，仍应该“花开两朵，各表一枝”，以确保不因表达观点而遭受暴政与暴民的惩罚。
Show threadChristopherSep 3, 2023

@Gargron
On both Twitter and Counter.Social I saw interesting posts from people, and felt a sense of engagement with and by other users. (Twitter has turned to utter garbage, and Counter.Social is intolerant/ban happy - banning anyone who wants to share ideas that are discomforting to the group)

Here, I feel like I'm in a void, like I've been placed in a quarantine and muted. This is such a lonely/empty/dead feeling space - maybe if you're a celebrity or something, it doesn't feel that way?

Show threadbrambleSep 3, 2023

@Crito @Gargron

I know I have friends who felt like Twitter was pretty lonely back before it went to crap. Not sure if that's a platform specific problem

Show threadMatt BuckleySep 3, 2023
@Gargron the biggest problem has been discovery, but glad to see improvements to (for example) the Mastodon mobile apps have been addressing this. It's only possible to keep in touch with your friends across a federated platform if you can actually find them!
Show threadPhilip Weiss (Phil in SF)Sep 3, 2023
@Gargron if Mastodon really solves the problem of losing friends due to fragmentation, then where are all the people i knew on Twitter?
Show threadThou OverlordSep 3, 2023
@Gargron Please stop putting the word "for" after "solves". The expression "Solve for X", is mathematical and it means to find X as an expression of the other variables, and that's totally different. Every time you do this it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Please stop.

When a problem is "solved" it's "solved". It's not "solved for".
Show threadNATALiE.EESep 3, 2023
@Gargron
Show threadMoussa MazouziSep 3, 2023
@Gargron How does Mastodon balance the need for decentralization with the need for moderation?
Show threadThou OverlordSep 3, 2023
@mazouzi @Gargron Oh this is an easy one even I can answer:

`"Say something wrong, get cancelled by your Overlord."`

Super simple to understand.
Show threadNotGagarinSep 4, 2023
@mazouzi
@Gargron
Each instance has it's own moderators and moderation policies.
Show threadBihazards 🌹✊🏽Sep 3, 2023
@Gargron eh, I disagree. I think we will always devolve to this problem and that's okay. We have to be willing not to be centralized around a single platform or a single standard, and ready to move as soon as the time comes. I think the age of tech that "just works" has made us a little too comfortable with relying on inherently unreliable systems.
Show threadNincowpoopSep 3, 2023

@Gargron

I believe that the ultimate wide spread adoption of Mastodon is important to democracy and the planet. I think it is so important that Mastodon must continue to rapidly evolved and create adoption and navigation that is more familiar and more easily understood by the bird site masses. It is not enough to just continue to explain that they are dumb and it is not that complicated. There may be some short term compromises, but worth it.

Show threadeev kuchenkaSep 3, 2023
@Gargron A better point of reference to me personally is how 15 years ago, even though not all of my friends were on the same IM platforms I could just use a multiprotocol messenger like Trillian to keep tabs on all of them instead of having to install 30 different clients.
Show threadKathy E. Gill 🇺🇦Sep 3, 2023

@Gargron
I once described Twitter to my parents as public telegrams.

Mastodon is trying to create “social media” protocols like those underpinning phone calls, email and texts. Not just “read” but “respond.”

Today no corporations are pushing for interoperability due to paying for multiple email providers (eg, MCI mail, Compuserve, Prodigy) so employees could email folks outside the company.

Note: It would be 20+ years between SMTP (1981) and Gmail (2004).

Show threadDavid NiceSep 3, 2023
@Gargron But how the hell to find people on here? My profile hasn't budged n a year, but I've only recently come back. Mastodon is no solution for the loss of musical friends on Xitter (where I've closed my account). Too few come here and those who did gave up.
Show threadBraw ☕🏳️‍🌈Sep 3, 2023

@davidpnice no other solution than using hashtags or sharing your profile to your friends via some third-party platform. Or just plain hoping someone notices you in federated feed. Search's in testing, so that's something... Discovery is absolutely lacking on Mastodon, sadly. I guess due to technical constrains

@Gargron

Show threadDavid NiceSep 4, 2023
@brawaru @Gargron Yes - but I hope the latest horrors on X will drive a few more folk over here.
Show threadre_chiefSep 3, 2023
@Gargron I’m grateful for what you’ve built, but with all due respect, it is famously difficult to discover and follow people on Mastodon servers that are different from your own. Articles have been written about this in the news. It is a deterrent to new adopters. I recognize that this is intentional in some ways but the Fediverse is far more fragmented than most other social networks
Show threadWowwoweowzaSep 3, 2023
@Gargron — I need the Mastodon Primer that might explain the entire Fediverse for a GenXer who wants to encourage the collapse of FB, X, Reddit etc. how does it all work? How can I set up a server to host some?
Show threadBrad LeVeckSep 4, 2023
@Gargron so, why do you think it failed to actually solve that problem?
Show threadR_C_Sep 4, 2023
@Gargron I'm glad you said "solves for" and not "solves."
Show threadTrinsecSep 4, 2023
@Gargron The Fediverse is ridiculously fragmented due to different ideologies and not accepting that other instances have other views.

If they are blatantly bad, like racism and all that, fine, block them. But if they simply have a different view that's not harming others? Well, they get blocked too!

Too many new users who are wondering why they couldn't follow X and Y. "Oh, that's because their server blocks yours."