Nick Lockwood
With Google's latest move to lock down the web (Web Environment Integrity) I'm reminded once again of all the folks who've earnestly tried to assure me over the years that the greatest threat to the open web is actually Apple not allowing 3rd party browser engines on iOS.
Jul 31, 2023 at 10:01amIceCubesApp
Show threadNick LockwoodJul 31, 2023

I genuinely believe that the fact that Webkit is the only engine Apple will allow on iOS is the only thing preventing a complete Chromium monoculture on the web right now.

User choice isn't worth shit if web devs don't support any browser except Chrome, and if 95% of people are using it then that's all they will support.

Show threadNick LockwoodJul 31, 2023

And to be clear, I'm not under any illusion that Apple's reasons for doing this are in any way noble. They're doing it because they don't want to be under Google's bootheel, and unlike most of us they are powerful enough to avoid that fate.

Is it better to be under Apple's boot than Google's? Maybe not. But I still think two boots are better than one.

Show threadFrank ReiffJul 31, 2023

@nicklockwood Yes, two boots are better.

Still, it’s a bit ironic that one is worn by the “Think different” company and the other by “Don’t be evil”.

Show threadGraham Lee, D.PhilJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood I was momentarily confused because while I know all the FAANG companies are famed for bizarre employee perks, I was confident I didn't see "Google's brothel" when I visited Mountain View.
Show threadI Can't Believe It's Not Zero!Jul 31, 2023
@leeg @nicklockwood with all the sex pest stories about execs there … 😬
Show threadSaagar JhaAug 1, 2023
@steve @leeg @nicklockwood Don’t worry all the pests have been given sizable severance payments to leave the company
Show threadI Can't Believe It's Not Zero!Aug 1, 2023
@saagar @leeg @nicklockwood Sergei’s still there in some capacity, no?
Show threadSaagar JhaAug 1, 2023
@steve @leeg @nicklockwood I mean they gave him a bunch of money and a bunch of things to do that are more interesting than harassing random engineers I think. But yes I guess he is technically still around
Show threadBoredomFestivalJul 31, 2023
@leeg @nicklockwood we do not comment on unannounced products
Show threadSaagar JhaJul 31, 2023
@leeg @nicklockwood I knew I wasn’t the only one who misread that
Show threaddimsumthinkingJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood this was one of Jobs lasting legacy at Apple - reduce dependency on others. Over the years you see this with no third party hardware, no flash on the phone, no Java on the phone, their own browser and engine, their own silicon…. I think it was a smart move for them
Show threadIvo LimmenJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood I see a lot of issues while using FireFox already. It's like the 2000's when only Internet Explorer worked and FireFox was forgotten as well...
Try using Teams on FireFox
Show threadJack WellbornJul 31, 2023

@nicklockwood @Migueldeicaza Chromies call Safari “the new IE” because it was slow to adopt new standards and because Webkit is the only engine allowed on iOS. Many of their criticisms are fair, but what made IE a threat was that it had over 90% browser share and so Microsoft could do whatever it wanted regardless of the standards. This is what Google wants.

Oh yeah, and web developers of that era would only support IE and accuse Firefox for being non-standard.

Show threadNick LockwoodJul 31, 2023

@jackwellborn @Migueldeicaza yeah, I agree with that. Also Safari isn't lagging behind Chrome in functionality due to Apple not caring about web standards - it's because Google has so much clout that they have effectively redefined the standards to be "whatever Chrome is doing".

As for the last part - I *was* a web developer of that era, and that's not quite accurate. We all loved Firefox and wanted it to succeed, but we had to support IE above all else because that's what our customers used.

Show threadJack WellbornJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood @Migueldeicaza I too was a web developer of that era and trust me, there were web developers who primarily worked in enterprise (sent with echo) and saw supporting anything other than IE as non-standard.
Show threadMichael LabowiczJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood in this case it seems that two wrongs may make a right
Show threadRaphaelJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood Why did so many people start using Chrome, anyway? I never saw any good reason to do that.
Show threadMatthew AbbottAug 3, 2023
@raphael_fl @nicklockwood a combination of utility from Google account integration (remember gmail was a huge deal for a lot of people when it hit) and successful marketing to people who otherwise only knew about IE.
Show threadArosano@hachyderm 🇮🇱🇩🇰Jul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood In the old days IE had a 95% market share, and eventually they/it died.
Show threadFlishAug 1, 2023
@arosano @nicklockwood it had the share, but it was also the biggest PITA to build for, that was when Firefox and Chrome took off as it was more consistent
Show threadNick LockwoodAug 1, 2023
@arosano the circumstances of that are unlikely to be repeated. The web was a side project for Microsoft, whereas for Google it's their entire business.
Show threadMatt SickerJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood truth! Doesn’t help that web developers largely suck at their jobs
Show threadChristian GloddyAug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood Completely agree
Show threadalwillisAug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood With Google’s history of privacy violations, I don’t want Google’s engine to have low-level access to iOS: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2012/08/google-will-pay-225-million-settle-ftc-charges-it-misrepresented-privacy-assurances-users-apples
Google Will Pay $22.5 Million to Settle FTC Charges it Misrepresented Privacy Assurances to Users of Apple's Safari Internet Browser

Google Inc.

Federal Trade Commission
Show threadNick LockwoodAug 1, 2023
@alwillis absolutely! (it it wasn't clear, I was saying it's a *good* thing)
Show threadBenny Powers 🇨🇦️🇮🇱️Aug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood if it wasn't for Apple's greedy immoral and monopolistic practices, servo and ladybird would probably have iOS alpha builds by this point. Apple and their decades long policy of strategic underinvestment is a significant part of the reason why Chrome dominates
Show threadAnatole DedeckerAug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood Sorry if I’m saying something dumb, but I was under the impression that WebKit and Chromium come from the same original project, is that not the case? Of course it’s still nice that they are managed separately to avoid new Google bullshit.
Show threadNick LockwoodAug 1, 2023
@anatolededecker Chromium was forked from Apple's WebKit (which was itself a fork of KHTML), but the fork happened a decade ago and they've diverged considerably in that time.
Show threadAnatole DedeckerAug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood Ok thanks!
Show threadAntwan van HoudtAug 3, 2023
@nicklockwood Im often 'reminded' by frustrated devs how WebKit is the new IE -- them strangely forgetting that it was the market share not its bugs, that were the big problem.
Show threadIan McKellarJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood @Migueldeicaza
Have you heard of this thing called Firefox that's not based on WebKit (unlike Safari, Chrome, Edge, etc). It's also the only major browser from a company that's not pushing an advertising network.
Show threadNick LockwoodJul 31, 2023

@ian @Migueldeicaza gosh, that sounds amazing! I wonder where they get their funding from?

https://uk.pcmag.com/suites/128195/mozilla-signs-lucrative-3-year-google-search-deal-for-firefox

Mozilla Signs Lucrative 3-Year Google Search Deal for Firefox

In return for Google being the default search engine in Firefox, Mozilla is expected to bank $400M+ a year.

PCMag UK
Show threadIan McKellarJul 31, 2023

@nicklockwood @Migueldeicaza
Same place Safari does: https://medium.com/macoclock/safari-apples-hidden-gem-893696ce3dd0

But Mozilla doesn't collect user data for advertising while Apple does: https://www.wired.com/story/apple-privacy-data-collection/

If you care about privacy and choice (I do) then Apple is not your ally.

Show threadNick LockwoodJul 31, 2023

@ian @Migueldeicaza to be clear, I think it's disgusting that Apple has started putting ads in their apps, but there's no mention of Safari in that article - I think you're conflating Apple's App Store search ad business with web-based trackers (which Safari mostly blocks).

No corporation is the ally of any individual, but Apple's business model isn't primarily based on privacy violation, so I'll take them over Google. I don't have a problem with Mozilla but they're irrelevant.

Show threadIan McKellarJul 31, 2023

@nicklockwood @Migueldeicaza
I think you risk conflating Google's browser business with their ad business. I think Google risks that too - but Apple also risks conflating their browser and ad businesses.

Apple's business model relies on its close relationship with the Chinese government, which is presumably why they give the Chinese government to their users iCloud keys.

I tend to avoid companies that sell out their users to support genocide, usually.

Show threadMiguel de Icaza ᯅ🍉Jul 31, 2023
@ian @nicklockwood chrome is just a component of the ad business.
Show threadIan McKellarAug 1, 2023
@Migueldeicaza @nicklockwood no more than Safari.
Show threadSaagar JhaAug 1, 2023
@Migueldeicaza @ian @nicklockwood Everything is synonymous with the profit business. For Google that is equivalent to ads. For Apple that is a handful of things one of which is, increasingly, ads
Show threadMiguel de Icaza ᯅ🍉Jul 31, 2023
@ian @nicklockwood I hear you on China, but that hasn’t stopped Google from doing business in Israel or having development labs there.
Show threadIan McKellarAug 1, 2023

@Migueldeicaza @nicklockwood there's a big difference between having development labs somewhere (as Google & other do in China) and giving access to your users' data. I'm uncomfortable with all of these companies' engagement with countries that don't respect human rights. I've been involved in protest against my employer building data centers in Israel and Saudi Arabia.

But Apple's approach to their users data in China is afaik unique among Western companies.

Show threadMiguel de Icaza ᯅ🍉Aug 1, 2023
@ian @nicklockwood seems like an arbitrary line to draw in the sand. Happy for you or sorry it happened.
Show threadEric JenningsAug 1, 2023

@ian @Migueldeicaza @nicklockwood Apple’s approach in China isn’t totally unique among the western companies allowed to operate there.

Western companies in China have to partner with a Chinese company that owns the servers and has root access to them. So you either let a Chinese company with CCP representation on their board own the servers. Or you don’t operate there.

Show threadrain 🌦️Jul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood Apple already shipped remote attestation, requires you to be logged into an Apple ID on an Apple device. Google's proposal is roughly exactly as bad. Google has more market power but also hasn't actually shipped it yet
Show threadrain 🌦️Jul 31, 2023

@nicklockwood The duopoly of Apple and Google is the biggest threat to the open and free web. Their interests diverge often but on DRM and remote attestation they are exactly aligned.

As technologists we have outsized power and we can make Firefox be relevant again. What are we going to do to make that a reality?

Show threadChris FerdinandiJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood shout out to Alex Russell 😂
Show threadJimmy T 🐙Aug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood Chromium is powered by WebKit, though. Same engine. Firefox's Gecko is the only competition at this point.
Show threadalwillisAug 1, 2023
@jimmythomas @nicklockwood Google forked WebKit 10 years ago… they are quite different now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit#cite_note-12.
WebKit - Wikipedia

Show threadNick LockwoodAug 1, 2023
@alwillis @jimmythomas yep. Plus it never shared the same JavaScript engine, even from day one.