Nick LockwoodJul 31, 2023
With Google's latest move to lock down the web (Web Environment Integrity) I'm reminded once again of all the folks who've earnestly tried to assure me over the years that the greatest threat to the open web is actually Apple not allowing 3rd party browser engines on iOS.
Show threadNick Lockwood

I genuinely believe that the fact that Webkit is the only engine Apple will allow on iOS is the only thing preventing a complete Chromium monoculture on the web right now.

User choice isn't worth shit if web devs don't support any browser except Chrome, and if 95% of people are using it then that's all they will support.

Jul 31, 2023 at 10:14amIceCubesApp
Show threadNick LockwoodJul 31, 2023

And to be clear, I'm not under any illusion that Apple's reasons for doing this are in any way noble. They're doing it because they don't want to be under Google's bootheel, and unlike most of us they are powerful enough to avoid that fate.

Is it better to be under Apple's boot than Google's? Maybe not. But I still think two boots are better than one.

Show threadFrank ReiffJul 31, 2023

@nicklockwood Yes, two boots are better.

Still, it’s a bit ironic that one is worn by the “Think different” company and the other by “Don’t be evil”.

Show threadGraham Lee, D.PhilJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood I was momentarily confused because while I know all the FAANG companies are famed for bizarre employee perks, I was confident I didn't see "Google's brothel" when I visited Mountain View.
Show threadI Can't Believe It's Not Zero!Jul 31, 2023
@leeg @nicklockwood with all the sex pest stories about execs there … 😬
Show threadSaagar JhaAug 1, 2023
@steve @leeg @nicklockwood Don’t worry all the pests have been given sizable severance payments to leave the company
Show threadI Can't Believe It's Not Zero!Aug 1, 2023
@saagar @leeg @nicklockwood Sergei’s still there in some capacity, no?
Show threadSaagar JhaAug 1, 2023
@steve @leeg @nicklockwood I mean they gave him a bunch of money and a bunch of things to do that are more interesting than harassing random engineers I think. But yes I guess he is technically still around
Show threadBoredomFestivalJul 31, 2023
@leeg @nicklockwood we do not comment on unannounced products
Show threadSaagar JhaJul 31, 2023
@leeg @nicklockwood I knew I wasn’t the only one who misread that
Show threaddimsumthinkingJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood this was one of Jobs lasting legacy at Apple - reduce dependency on others. Over the years you see this with no third party hardware, no flash on the phone, no Java on the phone, their own browser and engine, their own silicon…. I think it was a smart move for them
Show threadIvo LimmenJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood I see a lot of issues while using FireFox already. It's like the 2000's when only Internet Explorer worked and FireFox was forgotten as well...
Try using Teams on FireFox
Show threadJack WellbornJul 31, 2023

@nicklockwood @Migueldeicaza Chromies call Safari “the new IE” because it was slow to adopt new standards and because Webkit is the only engine allowed on iOS. Many of their criticisms are fair, but what made IE a threat was that it had over 90% browser share and so Microsoft could do whatever it wanted regardless of the standards. This is what Google wants.

Oh yeah, and web developers of that era would only support IE and accuse Firefox for being non-standard.

Show threadNick LockwoodJul 31, 2023

@jackwellborn @Migueldeicaza yeah, I agree with that. Also Safari isn't lagging behind Chrome in functionality due to Apple not caring about web standards - it's because Google has so much clout that they have effectively redefined the standards to be "whatever Chrome is doing".

As for the last part - I *was* a web developer of that era, and that's not quite accurate. We all loved Firefox and wanted it to succeed, but we had to support IE above all else because that's what our customers used.

Show threadJack WellbornJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood @Migueldeicaza I too was a web developer of that era and trust me, there were web developers who primarily worked in enterprise (sent with echo) and saw supporting anything other than IE as non-standard.
Show threadMichael LabowiczJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood in this case it seems that two wrongs may make a right
Show threadRaphaelJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood Why did so many people start using Chrome, anyway? I never saw any good reason to do that.
Show threadMatthew AbbottAug 3, 2023
@raphael_fl @nicklockwood a combination of utility from Google account integration (remember gmail was a huge deal for a lot of people when it hit) and successful marketing to people who otherwise only knew about IE.
Show threadArosano@hachyderm 🇮🇱🇩🇰Jul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood In the old days IE had a 95% market share, and eventually they/it died.
Show threadFlishAug 1, 2023
@arosano @nicklockwood it had the share, but it was also the biggest PITA to build for, that was when Firefox and Chrome took off as it was more consistent
Show threadNick LockwoodAug 1, 2023
@arosano the circumstances of that are unlikely to be repeated. The web was a side project for Microsoft, whereas for Google it's their entire business.
Show threadMatt SickerJul 31, 2023
@nicklockwood truth! Doesn’t help that web developers largely suck at their jobs
Show threadChristian GloddyAug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood Completely agree
Show threadalwillisAug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood With Google’s history of privacy violations, I don’t want Google’s engine to have low-level access to iOS: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2012/08/google-will-pay-225-million-settle-ftc-charges-it-misrepresented-privacy-assurances-users-apples
Google Will Pay $22.5 Million to Settle FTC Charges it Misrepresented Privacy Assurances to Users of Apple's Safari Internet Browser

Google Inc.

Federal Trade Commission
Show threadNick LockwoodAug 1, 2023
@alwillis absolutely! (it it wasn't clear, I was saying it's a *good* thing)
Show threadBenny Powers 🇨🇦️🇮🇱️Aug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood if it wasn't for Apple's greedy immoral and monopolistic practices, servo and ladybird would probably have iOS alpha builds by this point. Apple and their decades long policy of strategic underinvestment is a significant part of the reason why Chrome dominates
Show threadAnatole DedeckerAug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood Sorry if I’m saying something dumb, but I was under the impression that WebKit and Chromium come from the same original project, is that not the case? Of course it’s still nice that they are managed separately to avoid new Google bullshit.
Show threadNick LockwoodAug 1, 2023
@anatolededecker Chromium was forked from Apple's WebKit (which was itself a fork of KHTML), but the fork happened a decade ago and they've diverged considerably in that time.
Show threadAnatole DedeckerAug 1, 2023
@nicklockwood Ok thanks!
Show threadAntwan van HoudtAug 3, 2023
@nicklockwood Im often 'reminded' by frustrated devs how WebKit is the new IE -- them strangely forgetting that it was the market share not its bugs, that were the big problem.