Mastodawn

Nick @ The Linux Experiment

Thanks for all the suggestions to fix my issues on macOS. A few remarks:
- the option to always keep the menu bar visible in fullscreen wasn’t where people told me it was. I eventually found it in “missions control” for some reason.
- Three fingers drag to move a window is awesome, why is it not in the main touchpad settings?
- The “move” shortcut is the stupidest thing. Just use the command X feature that is IN THE MENU (why have it here if it’s greyed out all the time??)

Nick @ The Linux Experiment Jul 27, 2023

The rest of my issues still stand, and even with these small things fixed, the OS just feels like it’s fighting me everytime I want to use more than 1 app at a time.

It’s not “getting used to it”. I get used to KDE or GNOME or elementary OS, or even MATE and Budgie in 15 minutes, and they are very different. I couldn’t get used to macOS in 30 days. This OS is made up of a bunch of disjointed features layered on top of each other without thought about how they solve window management.

Victor Frunza Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP I use macOS both at work and home. I do like it, but at the same time I share nearly all your criticisms. It’s sometimes frustrating, and the glacially slow addition of productivity features to new versions of macOS sucks.

Also the seemingly stubborn refusal to add features that are tried and tested in other operating systems (ie corner snapping)….

Hugh Corner Jul 27, 2023

@vfrunza @thelinuxEXP The fact that MacOS doesn't have window snapping/tiling genuinely blows my mind. For an OS that prides itself on ease of use, you'd think this would be a no-brainer.

MilesMcBain Jul 27, 2023

@hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP I was shocked by this recently too having been working on both win and Linux where this comes standard issue.

But then I saw a number of options in the App Store and it clicked… why dev the feature yourself when the longer you don’t implement it, the more App Store sales commissions you make? 🤑

👾Jul 27, 2023

@milesmcbain @hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP This is it. Bang-on.

poisonwomb Jul 27, 2023

@hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP @vwbusguy i would guess the reason why it doesn’t have it is because it’s too easy, at least in the Windows implementation, to accidentally trigger, which i think is correct. i think they would say that the more important behaviour is that the OS remembers the size and position of windows so you’re not constantly janitoring them whenever you open an application. macOS does this pretty well, Windows at least utterly fails at it.

Hugh Corner Jul 27, 2023

@poisonwomb @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP @vwbusguy Those are two separate issues, I think, although I can't say I've noticed either of them being a problem when using Windows.

poisonwomb Jul 27, 2023

@hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP @vwbusguy i think it’s a philosophical thing of the computer not doing things you wouldn’t expect. it’s irritating to position a window round the top of the screen in Windows because the edges are ‘hot’ so to speak. and lucky you; every Windows PC i’ve ever used has spewed the windows whenever the display adapter changes, and it’s a crapshoot if window position persists between app launches.

Scott Williams 🐧Jul 27, 2023

@poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP I don't know about Windows, but on #Gnome, those are easy to turn on or off in the settings. No need to get philosophical about it on Gnome at least :-) .

Hugh Corner Jul 27, 2023

@vwbusguy @poisonwomb @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP Gnome's implementation is really good, IMO.

Scott Williams 🐧Jul 27, 2023

@hughc @poisonwomb @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP I agree! Pop_OS also adds some really nice polish and quality of life improvements to it as well.

pixelspree Jul 27, 2023

@vwbusguy @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP I havent used windows since 2010 or something but Plasma desktop also has this easily accessable.

Scott Williams 🐧Jul 27, 2023

@pixelspree @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP Yeah, I specifically picked on Gnome because it has a reputation for "not being configurable", but these options are right there in the stock general Settings. Meanwhile, it's hard to imagine anything you can't tweak on #KDE.

pixelspree Jul 27, 2023

@vwbusguy @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP Yeah I hear that also all the time but I don't miss anything at all. People still whine about missing icons on the desktop as if it's 2010... It's weird.

Why would I go look for an icon when I can simply start typing the first letter of the program name and hit enter?

Scott Williams 🐧Jul 27, 2023

@pixelspree @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP You can configure that, too, from Tweaks. Literally less effort to turn that on than to log into a website and complain about it on most distros.

pixelspree Jul 27, 2023

@vwbusguy @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP Yeah I know but I think gnomes workflow just makes sense. I love it.

I have extension only for custom themes because I like my gnome beautiful.

Scott Williams 🐧Jul 27, 2023

@pixelspree @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP I switched to KDE when Gnome 3 first came out, but I came back around to it. I run both Gnome and KDE now and appreciate them both for what they bring to the table. I especially love the KDE experience from #Fedora #Kinoite.

pixelspree Jul 27, 2023

@vwbusguy @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP Yup I switch back and forth between them every time there is an new release. Because it's fun. ')

john r red-horse Jul 28, 2023

I've been sticking with Gnome for quite a while now, but I have to say, all these years trying to disable tracker-miner, et al, have made me tired. :)

I like the current rev Gnome interface well enough, but I took stock the other day and there are almost zero DE-bound applications that I use.

I suspect I could move straight to a DM/WM and be good with it. That is, if I could land on something that played well with Wayland. And allowed multiple monitors.

Maxi 12x 💉Jul 28, 2023

@pixelspree @vwbusguy @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza »Why would I go look for an icon when I can simply start typing the first letter of the program name and hit enter?«

Because I don't remember my freaking program names! MKVToolNix GUI, great name to require your average no0b to remember once a quartal. Yikes! I'm not in the desktop icons team, but constantly use Plasma's start menu categories to find my programs that aren't in the favorites or in a panel.

@frumble @pixelspree @vwbusguy @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza which reminds me that a #TUI-based #StartMenu / #Launcher is kinda needed.

Something that allows people to simply search for "editor" and they 'll get tools like ne, vim, nano or whatever..

pixelspree Jul 28, 2023

@frumble @vwbusguy @poisonwomb @hughc @vfrunza Well maybe you remember some part of it, and that's enough. :)

I sometimes don't remember also but that's for infrequently used programs. Then I also look for them in my app history list or something like that.

ottO Jul 27, 2023

@hughc @vfrunza @thelinuxEXP it is almost like linux and macos have two different *main* target audiences huh?

Aks Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP
Clearly youre not "thinking different"

Now please keep buying our expensive e-waste because it has image of apple in it

/s

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP I've frequently said that ...

Apple OS are like a tram on rails: they get you where you need to go without putting in much effort, but can't take you everywhere, and you aren't really in control

Windows is like a 4-door sedan: not the easiest or flashiest and prone to needing maintenance but generally reliable and can do what 98% of users want or need. Just make sure you know a mechanic

Linux is like an off-road vehicle: can take you literally anywhere, even places nothing else can, but you better know how everything works because you might need to fix it yourself in the woods with a bubblegum wrapper and some duct tape.

Kegan Myers Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP That must be why all the Ruby on Rails developers I knew back in the day loved Mac.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@terribleplan @thelinuxEXP haaaaaaaaah

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP hmm...

I can agree that for some users and with some hardware you can have issues with Linux.

But what about users that just use it for browsing the internet?

In my perspective setting up mint for my parents, brother and grandma was the smartest decision I'd ever made.

No more blue screens, updates breaking something etc.

I honestly think that Linux is the most problematic for people who actually know how to do stuff on windows/mac or have some specific needs.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen @thelinuxEXP The problem in that scenario is that if they one day want to do something that they aren't already trained for - like run a program outside a browser - it gets really hard really fast, partly because the support resources for lay people aren't the top results on Google, and partly because it's so easy to get into a bad state.

It turns into the Apple problem: if you want to do one of the dozen tasks that have been layed in front of you by default it's great, but anything beyond that is a crapshoot. And in the case of Linux there's no Genius Bar to help, and a community that can be overly technical for many

/1

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen @thelinuxEXP let me ask you this: if you weren't around to help when needed, would you feel comfortable leaving your family in the hands of the Linux community and available resources they can search for on Google with their own search skills?

I sure as shit wouldn't for my brother and parents lol

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP even knowing that they don't know English except for my brothers I still would.

I actually kinda did because I live like 250km from them and visit like 2-3 times a year. For 10 years only my father had minor problem but he was windows power-ish user before and that wasn't anything serious or urgent either (also easy to fix by me googling and telling him what to do).

Also the way of fixing windows in my family was usually just reinstalling it completely so...

Nick @ The Linux Experiment Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @shippingqueen I personally did, and never had to do anything or to help. They didn’t have to look for help because everything just worked once it was set up correctly :)

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP @shippingqueen It takes all sorts, I guess. I know that not being able to share workflows with other people in their lives would infuriate my family.

"Ok, open this in Word."
"I don't have that. I have Libre Office"
"Ok well use that, and then go to page layout"
"I don't see that. Where is it?"
etc etc

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP but you are not talking about linux right now but free alternatives for paid (expensive) programs.

They'll have the same problem if they use LibreOffice/OpenOffice on Windows.

A lot of people I know only use google docs tho so it again depends of user's needs.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen @thelinuxEXP I'm not talking about free, I'm talking about uncommon compared to the general public. Free, paid, it doesn't matter. If it's not what most people use then the same problem applies, and while, e.g., Google docs may work for word processing, Sheets can't hold a candle to the full feature set of Excel or even Libre

Don't get me wrong here: I've used Ubuntu and Mint as my daily OS for years and only switched back to Windows for gaming on my desktop after I got my work laptop. I administrate multiple Linux servers. I LOVE Linux. But I'm still not ready to recommend it to the average person

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP but again it's not necessary linux specific problem.
My father always used openoffice on Windows because he couldn't afford paying for licence for newer version (Windows price was harsh enough to pay for) so he stuck with Office 97 as alternative.

LibreOffice is more intuitive for him than Microsoft Office or google docs even.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen we seem to be talking past eachother. If Linux doesn't have the software that most people use, and most people want to use what everyone else uses because it makes life easier, then it IS a Linux problem.

That's like saying "I know the PS5 doesn't have this game you want to play but that's a gamedev problem, not a platform problem" when the reason it's not on the PS5 is because of an exclusivity deal

In the end, the average person doesn't care if the software they want to use COULD be made available for Linux. They only care if it IS available

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen if Halo is only available on Xbox and I want to play Halo then I'm going to get an Xbox. And if Excel is only available on Windows (I guess Mac too these days) and I want to use Excel then I'm going to use Windows. Same goes for online games with anti-cheat. Same goes for specialized software like Rhino 3D for CAD. Same goes for popular software like Photoshop

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee but again it's what I call specific use case. They need that specific office suite so maybe linux isn't for them, you setting this up so it's up to you to choose what they possibly may need.

But that doesn't mean that only tech-savvy people can use linux.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen I never said only tech savvy people can use Linux though? 0_o Rather, I implied that the average person would struggle to overcome challenges when they arise.

Needing to use Excel isn't some weird edge case. Wanting to use Photoshop isn't some weird edge case. My point isn't that everyone uses Photoshop, my point is that whether it's Photoshop, Excel, or something else, the average person will come across situations where the thing they want to use isn't available on Linux.

You're focusing on the specific software I'm referencing instead of the generalized form of the problem I'm describing

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen if I pulled 100 people off the street and said "name a piece of software you use regularly that isn't a web browser" I'd get 25 different answers, but a large % of them wouldn't be available for Linux. It's not the specific piece of software that's the issue. It's the general problem of meeting user expectations

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee That's a little bit of trap, OpenOffice/Libreoffice writer or even google docs is called Word all the time by people actually (at least in my experience) 😂

My father also still does that after more that 20 years not using real Word

I don't insist that linux is for everyone or that no one will have any issue but a lot of people will have great time, especially with older hardware.

I just think is unfair to make it sound like it's only for people who know what to do.

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee we clearly have different impression about who average user is 😉

From my personal opinion a lot of users don't use anything more than browser this days and that was my case from the start.
And I don't even talk about gamers because they may have issues (or not) and that must be their choice.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen it seems we do indeed have very different opinions on that.

Thank you for the discussion. I'm glad we were able to get to the heart of it ^_^

Amy 🇹🇭Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP @neatchee @shippingqueen I set it up for my cousin, downloaded microsoft edge (Seriously, it has good pdf thingy) and it makes the crappy laptop feels like a fast laptop. There has been no problem :D

Amy 🇹🇭Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP @neatchee @shippingqueen Also set up Linux Mint for my little cousin and he uses it without a problem, but of course he has no problem with it, It's his first desktop OS!

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@AmyIsCoolz @thelinuxEXP @shippingqueen this is one use case I will absolutely recommend the average person use Linux for: making shit hardware feel good to use

Amy 🇹🇭Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP @shippingqueen It's GNOME too! Which is apparently the heavier DE, but it runs smoothly

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP they do use some other programs vlc, obs studio, anydesk/teamviewer and they managed themselves without my input whatsoever without any training (except my grandma who only read news in browser).

Thb my parents have harder time using smartphones.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen @thelinuxEXP Are your family particularly inquisitive? I know mine aren't and if they can't see an obvious answer, they might not even try Google

For a lot of people, the need to figure things out induces significant anxiety. My brother, for example, gets very upset very quickly if his intuition doesn't get him what he wants within 1-2 steps. It becomes "frustrating" and "complicated"

He made a mastodon account, searched for a friend but typed it like an email address (no leading @) and when it didn't immediately show him their account he gave up.

Tech anxiety is a thing we don't acknowledge often, kinda like math anxiety

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP not really, my father somewhat was when he was younger and on windows, my mother and brother just use what they have (she also plays with some adventure games I setted up for her), grandma only watch news.

Gert Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP I witness this in my colleagues' use of their beloved macs as well. When asking them about it, they respond with things like: "You just need to learn how to do it" or more frequently: "Why would you even want to do that?"

The gilded cage seems to have thorns on the inside.

aeva Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP I used it every day for the better part of a year in the middle of the 2010s and it felt like it was fighting me the entire time. I can only imagine it's worse now.

OmarSuarez Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP I like Tiles (Windows Manager) its free, ans works great. Maybe it helps a little bit.

https://freemacsoft.net/tiles/

Tiles

markusmunch Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP this IS ✅ the correct opinion.

Rui Carmo Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP well, Stage Manager doesn’t help, either. But as someone who likes GNOME because I can make it feel like macOS and who’s gone through a lot of traditional X window managers (and non-traditional, like i3) I can tell you that window management will never be a solved problem for everyone. Still, there are loads of third-party utilities (https://taoofmac.com/space/apps/window_managers) and a _lot_ of OpenSource apps have ports, so it’s still my go to after a year of Fedora…

Window Managers

Window managers on macOS (and Windows) are auxiliary programs that try to complement the system’s own handling of windows, and are not as po...

Tao of Mac

sumokirby (Chris)Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP Try setting up hot corners.

Amy 🇹🇭Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP Guess they moved that option....

Nick @ The Linux Experiment Jul 27, 2023

@AmyIsCoolz To a completely baffling place, yeah. Mission Control?? That’s what they name their virtual desktops. The global menu has nothing to do with that?

Amy 🇹🇭Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP Yup, makes no sense!