Mastodawn

Nick @ The Linux Experiment Jul 27, 2023

Thanks for all the suggestions to fix my issues on macOS. A few remarks:
- the option to always keep the menu bar visible in fullscreen wasn’t where people told me it was. I eventually found it in “missions control” for some reason.
- Three fingers drag to move a window is awesome, why is it not in the main touchpad settings?
- The “move” shortcut is the stupidest thing. Just use the command X feature that is IN THE MENU (why have it here if it’s greyed out all the time??)

Nick @ The Linux Experiment Jul 27, 2023

The rest of my issues still stand, and even with these small things fixed, the OS just feels like it’s fighting me everytime I want to use more than 1 app at a time.

It’s not “getting used to it”. I get used to KDE or GNOME or elementary OS, or even MATE and Budgie in 15 minutes, and they are very different. I couldn’t get used to macOS in 30 days. This OS is made up of a bunch of disjointed features layered on top of each other without thought about how they solve window management.

@thelinuxEXP I've frequently said that ...

Apple OS are like a tram on rails: they get you where you need to go without putting in much effort, but can't take you everywhere, and you aren't really in control

Windows is like a 4-door sedan: not the easiest or flashiest and prone to needing maintenance but generally reliable and can do what 98% of users want or need. Just make sure you know a mechanic

Linux is like an off-road vehicle: can take you literally anywhere, even places nothing else can, but you better know how everything works because you might need to fix it yourself in the woods with a bubblegum wrapper and some duct tape.

Kegan Myers Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP That must be why all the Ruby on Rails developers I knew back in the day loved Mac.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@terribleplan @thelinuxEXP haaaaaaaaah

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP hmm...

I can agree that for some users and with some hardware you can have issues with Linux.

But what about users that just use it for browsing the internet?

In my perspective setting up mint for my parents, brother and grandma was the smartest decision I'd ever made.

No more blue screens, updates breaking something etc.

I honestly think that Linux is the most problematic for people who actually know how to do stuff on windows/mac or have some specific needs.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen @thelinuxEXP The problem in that scenario is that if they one day want to do something that they aren't already trained for - like run a program outside a browser - it gets really hard really fast, partly because the support resources for lay people aren't the top results on Google, and partly because it's so easy to get into a bad state.

It turns into the Apple problem: if you want to do one of the dozen tasks that have been layed in front of you by default it's great, but anything beyond that is a crapshoot. And in the case of Linux there's no Genius Bar to help, and a community that can be overly technical for many

/1

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen @thelinuxEXP let me ask you this: if you weren't around to help when needed, would you feel comfortable leaving your family in the hands of the Linux community and available resources they can search for on Google with their own search skills?

I sure as shit wouldn't for my brother and parents lol

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP even knowing that they don't know English except for my brothers I still would.

I actually kinda did because I live like 250km from them and visit like 2-3 times a year. For 10 years only my father had minor problem but he was windows power-ish user before and that wasn't anything serious or urgent either (also easy to fix by me googling and telling him what to do).

Also the way of fixing windows in my family was usually just reinstalling it completely so...

Nick @ The Linux Experiment Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @shippingqueen I personally did, and never had to do anything or to help. They didn’t have to look for help because everything just worked once it was set up correctly :)

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP @shippingqueen It takes all sorts, I guess. I know that not being able to share workflows with other people in their lives would infuriate my family.

"Ok, open this in Word."
"I don't have that. I have Libre Office"
"Ok well use that, and then go to page layout"
"I don't see that. Where is it?"
etc etc

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP but you are not talking about linux right now but free alternatives for paid (expensive) programs.

They'll have the same problem if they use LibreOffice/OpenOffice on Windows.

A lot of people I know only use google docs tho so it again depends of user's needs.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen @thelinuxEXP I'm not talking about free, I'm talking about uncommon compared to the general public. Free, paid, it doesn't matter. If it's not what most people use then the same problem applies, and while, e.g., Google docs may work for word processing, Sheets can't hold a candle to the full feature set of Excel or even Libre

Don't get me wrong here: I've used Ubuntu and Mint as my daily OS for years and only switched back to Windows for gaming on my desktop after I got my work laptop. I administrate multiple Linux servers. I LOVE Linux. But I'm still not ready to recommend it to the average person

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP but again it's not necessary linux specific problem.
My father always used openoffice on Windows because he couldn't afford paying for licence for newer version (Windows price was harsh enough to pay for) so he stuck with Office 97 as alternative.

LibreOffice is more intuitive for him than Microsoft Office or google docs even.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen we seem to be talking past eachother. If Linux doesn't have the software that most people use, and most people want to use what everyone else uses because it makes life easier, then it IS a Linux problem.

That's like saying "I know the PS5 doesn't have this game you want to play but that's a gamedev problem, not a platform problem" when the reason it's not on the PS5 is because of an exclusivity deal

In the end, the average person doesn't care if the software they want to use COULD be made available for Linux. They only care if it IS available

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen if Halo is only available on Xbox and I want to play Halo then I'm going to get an Xbox. And if Excel is only available on Windows (I guess Mac too these days) and I want to use Excel then I'm going to use Windows. Same goes for online games with anti-cheat. Same goes for specialized software like Rhino 3D for CAD. Same goes for popular software like Photoshop

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee but again it's what I call specific use case. They need that specific office suite so maybe linux isn't for them, you setting this up so it's up to you to choose what they possibly may need.

But that doesn't mean that only tech-savvy people can use linux.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen I never said only tech savvy people can use Linux though? 0_o Rather, I implied that the average person would struggle to overcome challenges when they arise.

Needing to use Excel isn't some weird edge case. Wanting to use Photoshop isn't some weird edge case. My point isn't that everyone uses Photoshop, my point is that whether it's Photoshop, Excel, or something else, the average person will come across situations where the thing they want to use isn't available on Linux.

You're focusing on the specific software I'm referencing instead of the generalized form of the problem I'm describing

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen if I pulled 100 people off the street and said "name a piece of software you use regularly that isn't a web browser" I'd get 25 different answers, but a large % of them wouldn't be available for Linux. It's not the specific piece of software that's the issue. It's the general problem of meeting user expectations

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee That's a little bit of trap, OpenOffice/Libreoffice writer or even google docs is called Word all the time by people actually (at least in my experience) 😂

My father also still does that after more that 20 years not using real Word

I don't insist that linux is for everyone or that no one will have any issue but a lot of people will have great time, especially with older hardware.

I just think is unfair to make it sound like it's only for people who know what to do.

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee we clearly have different impression about who average user is 😉

From my personal opinion a lot of users don't use anything more than browser this days and that was my case from the start.
And I don't even talk about gamers because they may have issues (or not) and that must be their choice.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen it seems we do indeed have very different opinions on that.

Thank you for the discussion. I'm glad we were able to get to the heart of it ^_^

Amy 🇹🇭Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP @neatchee @shippingqueen I set it up for my cousin, downloaded microsoft edge (Seriously, it has good pdf thingy) and it makes the crappy laptop feels like a fast laptop. There has been no problem :D

Amy 🇹🇭Jul 27, 2023

@thelinuxEXP @neatchee @shippingqueen Also set up Linux Mint for my little cousin and he uses it without a problem, but of course he has no problem with it, It's his first desktop OS!

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@AmyIsCoolz @thelinuxEXP @shippingqueen this is one use case I will absolutely recommend the average person use Linux for: making shit hardware feel good to use

Amy 🇹🇭Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP @shippingqueen It's GNOME too! Which is apparently the heavier DE, but it runs smoothly

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP they do use some other programs vlc, obs studio, anydesk/teamviewer and they managed themselves without my input whatsoever without any training (except my grandma who only read news in browser).

Thb my parents have harder time using smartphones.

neatchee Jul 27, 2023

@shippingqueen @thelinuxEXP Are your family particularly inquisitive? I know mine aren't and if they can't see an obvious answer, they might not even try Google

For a lot of people, the need to figure things out induces significant anxiety. My brother, for example, gets very upset very quickly if his intuition doesn't get him what he wants within 1-2 steps. It becomes "frustrating" and "complicated"

He made a mastodon account, searched for a friend but typed it like an email address (no leading @) and when it didn't immediately show him their account he gave up.

Tech anxiety is a thing we don't acknowledge often, kinda like math anxiety

Hoe Chin 🦋Jul 27, 2023

@neatchee @thelinuxEXP not really, my father somewhat was when he was younger and on windows, my mother and brother just use what they have (she also plays with some adventure games I setted up for her), grandma only watch news.