Mastodawn

prk Jul 9, 2023

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic Don’t be an absolutist. Be aware of nuance. Be aware of edge (heh) cases. Are you really sure that edgy is always passive-aggressive?

@prk @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic there is of course no such thing as an absolute. nothing is absolute and everything "depends". that doesn't mean we don't speak about things or try to see patterns. it isn't always passive-aggressive, but it usually is.

prk Jul 9, 2023

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic That’s where it’s important to acknowledge the nuance and avoid absolutist statements. Eg “Consider if your edgy is actually passive aggressive”

@prk @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic that is implied in all statements I make. I acknowledge nuance and abhor absolutes and speak about it on a daily basis here. I cannot preface every single statement with a disclaimer. I'm sorry if that's what you need.

Again - i don't speak for all autistic people nor do all autistic people share the same experiences. everyone is unique. everyone has their own experience. there are some experiences which are more common than others, but just because you don't fit into that doesn't make it so.

Now - making edgy statements which are not clearly communicated it an NT communication form. Most autistic people do not respond well to unclear communication. It's dysregulating. No, not every statement made with snide in the effort to make oneself seem cool to others is passive-aggressive, but they usually are.

prk Jul 9, 2023

@theautisticcoach

I can’t see it as implied at all - where would you say you implied it in your original toot?

As you point out, most Autistic folk need clear and precise communication. It may behoove you to practice this, especially if you’re coaching autistic people!

@prk 🙏🏼

@theautisticcoach @prk @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic i can't see if it was meant literally, the not being able to do disclaimers all the time, but actually I personally think disclaimers are great. for scientific precision, and for kindness in language. now if you want to speak in general, I don't see where this affirmation might be even coming from..

@veroalgoz @prk @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic

disclaimers are great, but they cannot be made for every single thing. I am a long-time autistic advocate in the wild and online. I speak daily about how we all have different experiences and how we are all unique. I post here as I let my thoughts out. I cannot preface each and every thing I write. There is an element of good faith that needs to be given to people, especially to those who are very active here in promoting neuro-affirming things.

Scientific precision is for academic studies. It is not a reasonable expectation that everyone here needs to speak with scientific precision. If that's the case, no one should speak whatsoever. As @gringene pointed out, sealioning is very problematic.

@theautisticcoach @prk @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic @gringene I am asking for precision in language, as in a person who deals bad with ambiguity, not asking for scientific precision. but imho such a big affirmation like that should be funded, if not by science (even if, there are not do many studies about us, and most of those we can't trust, etc), by a common understanding. specially if as you say, you are such a prominent contributor (imho, it should not create an hierarchy), as a lot of people read you and care for what you say. I stop here, on the part of precision, I think it is not going anywhere.

@veroalgoz @prk @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic @gringene

understood re: precision of language. but now we are losing the point of my original post, which is people not using non precise edgy language in order to harm. i don't create a hierarchy and you're right, we shouldn't have any. i say that only because I am the daily target of bad faith comments and questions on this topic and it is exhausting. i didn't put myself in this position, so to have to clarify every single word is extremely dysregulating for me, just like it is for you. people assume that because they have a following that they are somehow responsible to all and that they can "take it". i'm an autistic adult, just like everyone else. being trolled left and right is dysregulating and i want the passive aggressive and edgy comments to stop. that's it. you are not making them, of course, but focusing on my precise language not being absolute on a post i made about the use of inprecise cobative language.

@theautisticcoach

> I didn't put myself in this position

You kinda did, by creating gup.pe groups and hashtags and spamming them with your content. You're choosing to put yourself on a stage that is used for discussion about issues that are of concern to autistic people.

You are the person that I most frequently see posting in these groups; it's unusually and uncomfortably frequent. It reminds me of Mormons knocking on my door and asking to have a little chat about my opinion of Easter.

TBQH, saying

“that is implied in all statements I make. […] I cannot preface every single statement with a disclaimer. I'm sorry if that's what you need.”

and

“statements which are not clearly communicated it an NT communication form. Most autistic people do not respond well to unclear communication. It's dysregulating.“

…in the same post is PRETTY hypocritical. I’d have expected better of a communication coach.

If you know your audience responds badly to unclear communication, don’t rely on implications. Especially when people who don’t know you will not know about those. You’re also being pretty passive aggressive in a couple replies here.

Doesn’t put the things you post in a good light.
How could anyone expect to be coached well by you if you can’t even follow those recommendations yourself?

@Runoratsu @prk @actuallyautistics

I agree re: implications and thank you for pointing it out in that way.

I’m not passive-aggressive in any replies, I communicate my frustrations openly and assertively. Any reading of passive-aggressive is on the reader, not myself.

Regarding my professional work, I’m an autistic person. Not allistic. Not perfect. Nor is anyone. All the people who work with me appreciate the fact that I’m authentic and also deal with struggle openly and don’t pretend to be “cured” or that I never struggle with things or never have meltdowns or issues in life.

@Runoratsu @prk @actuallyautistics not passive aggressive. I am sorry if that’s what someone needs, I cannot provide a disclaimer about how all autistic people are different on every toot. This is a well accepted thing in our community, just like how everyone represents their own views and doesn’t speak for all autistic people.

Maybe you don’t see it yourself. That means you should work on YOUR communication first and foremost.

1. “A well accepted thing in […] the community” This is an NT concept.
“Everyone knows”, “Why do I even have to say that”, etc.
No. That’s NOT how this works among us. This is one of the exact things that leads to so many misunderstandings.

[1/4]

2. “I can’t put a disclaimer on everything” Yes you can. If something is not clear by itself, by the words contained in that posting alone, then that’s what’s missing and required. If that means not being able to communicate as much, then that’s just how it is. Clear communication is key, as you said yourself.
*Especially* if you want to act as a role model for communication (“You shouldn’t use x kind of language”).

[2/4]

3. Re passive aggressiveness: “I’m glad to see I’m understood by someone”. This means, conversely, that you’re not understood by the others, because otherwise, you could’ve just written “I’m glad to see you understand me”.
And that is passive aggression. [cont…]

[3/4]

[…cont] Because you’re not even considering that they might’ve understood you well, but that *you* simply didn’t understand *them*. Instead you’re attacking them (their ability to understand) in a reply not to them, but to someone else (and not in private either, but with them still in the addressees, so it’s not just lamenting over it to an outsider).

[4/4]

@Runoratsu @prk @actuallyautistics thanks for being direct. Your assumptions on why I say what I say is wrong. I pointed that out and you continue to tell me why I say what I say. You also continue to tell me what I have considered and haven’t, which is a stretch. You’re welcome to do it. And I’m welcome to not engage with it further. Have a great day. And that’s sincere, like everything else I’ve said.

What I tell you is that what you say is not what other people understand. And that’s ALWAYS on the one saying it, not the ones “mis”-understanding.

Again, if you want to tell others how to communicate, first do better yourself.

@Runoratsu @prk @actuallyautistics I work everyday to do better. I don’t tell anyone how to communicate. People are free to think and do what they want. You’re free not to listen. It isn’t only the perfected who are entitled to a voice.

prk Jul 10, 2023

@theautisticcoach @Runoratsu @actuallyautistics with all due respect, the toot that started this thread was you telling people how to communicate. Remember, “Don’t be edgy”?

So it seems a bit hypocritical to now say you “don’t tell anyone how to communicate”…

Also “entitled” Is an interesting choice of words there. That could possibly be a nice area of focus for some self reflection.

Elizabeth Jul 9, 2023

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic I agree in principle. There are gender dynamics at play too sometimes though where growing up as female when and where I did , the main message is don’t upset other people. Took me a while to realize that trying not to upset them is why I was sometimes passive-aggressive. Haven’t thought about masking in regards to that yet but it’s an excellent point so I will.

@Elizabeth3 @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic thank you for sharing this, it's a really important distinction.

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic

Loops 🍑

Jul 9, 2023

@Elizabeth3 I seem to keep being told it's all on me not to upset other people. That's what the message feels like.

I wind up asking questions when a plain 'I disagree' would work - although I often need the answers to really understand and get perceived as rude anyway 😅

I can be snide, and mean, because that's how it's always felt people communicate. The more I think about it, the more it seems related to masking. "If I don't this way at least they can understand it", maybe?

I don't really think I have a conclusion apart from, thanks for bringing it up - it's given me something to think about

@loops @Elizabeth3 @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic thank you for sharing and engaging! i think because we have been conditioned to reallt express our needs and thoughts, and the fact that passive aggressive language is preferred by NT society, that we take it on.

Elizabeth Jul 9, 2023

@loops @theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic definitely people want us playing their game and it’s one that’s hard for us to win. They have the majority so can enforce the norms. People who care about us have to grow with us and try to be direct and able to hear us be direct. But it’s uncomfortable for them for sure. Working to unmask when I can, I’ve had more conflict in the last year than in many years previously.

Claire Jul 9, 2023

@Elizabeth3 @theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic I would add that there is also often more in play. Ex: CPTSD can make it difficult to be direct because of fight/flight/freeze and dissociation.

So if being passive aggressive is what works to get your needs met, I would offer the invitation to prioritize getting your needs met.

Or if you don't have the energy to have the conversation but feel like it's standing up for yourself, do it. To me, it's do you, whatever that is.

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic Nothing wrong with passive aggression. I should be hitting people with an axe?

Passive aggression turns up in places where you can't resist otherwise, like the army. Or feel you can't. If that's your only outlet, it's better than nowt.

@fishidwardrobe @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic

i am referring to communication styles, not physical aggression.

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic Obviously. Passive aggression cannot, by definition, be physical aggression. It is, instead, a communication style. A replacement for physical (or verbal) aggression when that is not safe.

@fishidwardrobe @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic i am not speaking about physical aggression in any way, shape, or form. we are speaking of different things and aren't having the same conversation.

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic We are. You're just not understanding me. As an autistic person, I'm sure that's happened to you just as much as to me.

@fishidwardrobe @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic absolutely! it's happening to me right now as it is for you :) I don't understand you at all and you don't understand me at all.

i am speaking about people who use edgy and passive aggressive statements in order to troll and to sound funny to onlookers. they do not say what they really mean, but try to go around in circles to prove a point without being direct. i am saying that instead of this that people should simply say whatever they want to say. it isn't funny or cool to not communicate clearly. of course, some autistics can understand this type of "humor" and comments and understand that someone is trying to push them around, but most of us don't get it and just feel confused and bad about it.

you seem to be referring to when people use words to describe their physical anger and don't act out on it. is that right?

gri malkin Jul 9, 2023

@theautisticcoach @fishidwardrobe @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic "Passive aggression is a destructive pattern of behaviour that can be seen as a form of emotional abuse in relationships that bites away at the trust between people". https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/memberarticles/what-is-passive-aggressive-behaviour

What is passive-aggressive behaviour?

Passive-aggressive behaviour expert Andrea Harrn explains what passive aggressive behaviour is and how to overcome the effects.

@gri @fishidwardrobe @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic thank you. unclear to me why people think it's a positive thing :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic I see the problem, I think. That's not passive aggression. That's something else.

Passive aggression isn't trying to be funny. It's a way of complying with a demand, perhaps poorly, while still asserting a small measure of control. For example:

"I need you to restack all these boxes."

"Absolutely! Right away! I'm sure I didn't have anything else useful to do anyway!"

Passive-aggressive behavior - Wikipedia

@fishidwardrobe @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic i was speaking about being edgy, which i peg as a form of passive aggression

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic Well, okay, but doing that is going to get you misunderstood by some people. Perhaps a lot.

@fishidwardrobe @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic not being edgy is worse than being edgy?

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic I didn't say that.

@fishidwardrobe @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic sorry that I misunderstood. On second reading, do you mean that by equating edginess with passive aggressive I may confuse people ?

@fishidwardrobe @theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic adding my two cents here. passive aggressive communication shows up also where privilege differences or exclusion are, where you can't afford to be clear or blunt. ask any minority and/or any non cis white male person, or domestic violence target (examples list ongoing forever) if they always had the chance to speak freely and without consequences. I am not defending it, it is just that commenting on that form of communication needs a lot of differentiation, context and privilege checking here.

@veroalgoz @fishidwardrobe @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic

absolutely right, thank you for adding that to the convo

» F «Jul 9, 2023

@theautisticcoach What do you mean by "edgy"?

@erbridge being funny at someone else's expense with a "hot take" without saying it. passive-aggressive.

@erbridge i like this google definition - Exhibiting behavior that is disconcerting or alarming, sometimes in an effort to impress or to troll others.

» F «Jul 9, 2023

@theautisticcoach Right. Got it, thanks

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic
not everybody has that choice. example, people with BPD. just as an example many other cases where edgy is not a choice. and it is OK to have BPD. I don't think it is allistic versus autistic, and edgy is transversal to both. that affirmation of yours makes me slightly uncomfortable because of the absolute in it, specially if you work as a coach, but let's talk and learn all from this.

edit: this felt absolutely (pun intended) as click bait, optionally with rage bait, to me. like the "other network".

@veroalgoz @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic thank you for sharing that, absolutely true and important

@veroalgoz @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic

i was not speaking in absolutes and nothing I speak about is an absolute. everything "depends". I am speaking generally.

I did not mean it as click bait or rage bait. I meant it as I meet people everyday who are super upset and dysregulated by edgy comments on this and other platforms in the interest of getting clicks.

Not a Spring Onion Jul 9, 2023

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic

There is one thing that confuses me IRL as well as here on fedi:
(Apparently?) different concepts of the effective range of a statement.

I normally add several prefixes or define the focus of something I say.

Now, sometimes I simplify things, e.g. I might say "I hate plants because they give me allergies".

There seem to be people who take this as a statement with rather limited effect (it's an emotion, there is a sort of causality implied...).

Others... seem to receive it as a "global"/"absolute" statement (and might answer with "but without plants, you couldn't breathe" or something).

This seems to lead to a lot of misunderstandings. Not just between me and others, but also between others. And I wonder about the underlying cause.

Does the esteemed community have any thoughts on that?

@wakame @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic this is an awesome question!

@theautisticcoach @actuallyautistics @actuallyautistic

Dziadek Jul 9, 2023

@wakame

My thought is that this is a risk in written communication - always. It seemed on Twitter that people would often do it intentionally to get a rise. But often people brought their “needs” to the reply, like “They can’t talk about plants like that.”

In conversation with people who make no eye contact, there’s still an opportunity for misunderstanding. And so forth.

@theautisticcoach what do you mean by "edgy"?

It evokes similar thoughts and associations in my head as "woke", which is to say a nebulous fluff that I can't really define.

@gringene edgy is provocative for the sake of annoying others in an attempt to look cool or smarter than others to others, also with the intent of causing annoyance or psychological harm while hiding under the cover it being “simply a joke” or “a comment”

https://zirk.us/@sbarolo/109389533122005889

@theautisticcoach oh, you call #sealioning being "edgy"?

I'm not used to edgy having negative connotations.

Scott Barolo (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image · Content warning: CW: Sexual harassment in STEM

zirkus

@gringene I was unfamiliar with this term, thank you for sharing!

For me edgy goes a bit beyond the examples there, but that’s most of it