Mastodawn

John Breen Apr 30, 2023

@dangillmor @mmasnick FWIW I will add two (?) observations.
First, it's somewhat stunning that "Facebook" occurs only in the context of "Twitter and", when discussing social media platforms. And Google, as some other comments have observed.
Second, I absolutely care not a hoot about an algorithm to help me decide what to follow in my feed.
I will decide who to follow, in an "organic" way.
Perhaps not a common use case, but I'm not looking for a new curator or filter with in engagement with social media. I follow people and organizations I feel worthy, and people recommended by those people.
No algorithm other than my own need apply.

Generally appreciate Mike, but this is clearly a lot of BS from Jay & Bluesky, & Mike's totally uncritical take leaves me skeptical of the value of the whole discussion of #Bluesky.

"No no, the lack of blocking has nothing to do with not prioritizing it, don't be stupid! We're just being thoughtful & it's so super complicated! But also one white dude got trolled, so we prioritized it & voila, here it is 24h later! p.s. let's not ask any questions about Jay's candor or competence"

GrouchyHydra Apr 30, 2023

@chargrille as soon as a White Guy has to be accountable for being a bigot blocking is suddenly a thing, but at least half the pictures i see of that place is people calling each other racial slurs.

flere-imsaho 🇺🇦Apr 30, 2023

@chargrille
yeah, and he ignores (as in “i'm muting this thread now”) any voices that tell him that not all is as the bluesky people claim.

Defiance!Apr 30, 2023

@mawhrin @chargrille His cheerleading really undermines his credibility

Spicewalla Apr 30, 2023

@chargrille

Its reminiscent of the way ronald dump does some crazy shit; all his sycophants rush in to defend it as not being what it seems to be; and then the next day he throws them under the bus, proudly announcing that it is exactly what it seemed to be and he's a genius for doing it.

Pelayo Apr 30, 2023

@chargrille idk much about coding, but 4 years into the development of a social network protocol is a bit late to start "figuring stuff out" on features as basic as blocking people.

@chargrille My working assumption is that blocking still doesn’t exist at the protocol level, but they panicked and bodged it in as a kind of “instance-level block” that works only because bsky is (at the moment) a protocol running on a single instance. Federated blocks are a hard problem, as Mastodon demonstrates; it’s something they probably thought they could defer, but running a platform brings different challenges than designing a protocol.

Johan Pelck Olsen Apr 30, 2023

@craigm @chargrille I’ve heard about the reasons why this is a hard problem, but I’m actually not sure how Mastodon solves it? Any simple explanations for an ignorant in federated social media protocols?

@jpelckolsen @chargrille Basically, it’s just because you go from the platform problem of you can’t trust the client” to the protocol problem of “you can’t trust any of the servers.” Your home server can enforce certain things on foreign accounts (e.g., you can filter out posts from a blocked account or try to prevent blocked accounts from interacting with you), but any motivated bad actor server can find ways around that.

@jpelckolsen Mastodon can enforce “real” blocks on local accounts, but remote blocks are more like mutes plus some restrictions on interactions. But since remote servers can lie about what they’re doing, you end up just either hoping they’re acting in good faith, or aggressively blocking entire servers.

@craigm

Thank you, & I agree. Of course Graber & Dorsey knew #Bluesky would be single instance when they launched and none of that touches the basic point people were making that a) they could/should have prioritized blocking as a basic safety feature for said single instance (especially since the engineering costs were plainly negligible enough that they could scramble to push the code over a 24 hour period), but b) they didn't, & c) offered BS excuses that show quite shallow design thinking.

@chargrille I figure Dorsey assumed that bsky would go off and design the protocol, then Twitter would incorporate it into their platform (as a kind of central index and algorithm). Now that Dorsey is off doing that Nostr blockchain thing instead, bsky seems to be fending for itself, and (as you point out) their handful of protocol geeks are not remotely ready for dealing with all the trust and safety aspects of running an actual grown-up social media platform.

@chargrille And this … does not leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling that the handful of protocol geeks are going to effectively deal with all the trust and safety aspects of running said actual grown-up social media platform.
https://sfba.social/@williampietri/110288822630493238

William Pietri (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image This, via @[email protected], is a #bluesky gobsmacker. First there's the breathtaking confidence that this this exciting AI thing will solve the problem. As if Twitter didn't have literally hundreds of ML engineers working on this for years. YEARS. Then there's the notion that you could possibly create AI magic without doing enough of the manual work to really understand it. Nope! Third, there's apparently a belief that a magic technical solution exists to social problems that are so complex that they're demoralizing and hard to deal with. Fourth, I see no recognition that they should have had at least some starter solutions before letting users on at all. Lastly, there's the lack of recognition that anti-abuse work, hard though it is, is not nearly as hard as dealing with the abuse.

SFBA.social

c3141mtd Apr 30, 2023

@craigm @chargrille I don't understand how anyone can think it's a great idea to code and release a beta for an app when you haven't even finished designing the protocol or even come up with basic specifications and requirements for how things should work. This is not how professional software development works.

@c3141mtd Not any professional software development I've ever had a window into, that's for sure. It's sketchy, and Dorsey is beyond sketchy. I'm not about to memory-hole my decade+ experience with his management of Twitter just because someone is spreading rumors that he's "not involved" in a company he started, invested millions (or in Twitter's case, $1 billion) in, & sits on the Board. That's irrational. And how about some transparency on who owns how much of Bluesky?

@c3141mtd @chargrille Left to their own devices, I really don’t think they ever would have finalized the protocol; I think they would eternally be choosing colors for the bikeshed. But between the birdsite hellspiral, Jack losing interest, and all the new entrants in the space, I think they figured they needed to make their reference server into an actual product ASAP. Unlike spoutible and whatnot, though, they don’t have the time to grow into maturity.

@craigm Like, this is just *very* unimpressive design. I wouldn't hire a software architect responsible for it. They've had a year & given how it ties into Jack's "blind spots" on the racist (sexist, bigoted) use of social media platforms that he "somehow" has never managed to correct or be accountable for, it doesn't make sense to assume mere incompetence is the sole cause. It's not reasonable to think the failure to listen to Black test users calling for block features is an accident.

@chargrille It’s terrible product ownership on top of a promising protocol; the problem is the people who own the product are really only interested in the sexy chain-of-trust and schema interop stuff, and are in over their heads running the circus. (Compare to Mastodon, which built a pretty good product on top of a really crappy protocol!)

@chargrille My overall take, for what it’s worth, is that Graber is smart and decent, board member Jeremie Miller (of XMPP fame) is smart and decent, neither one has any sense of what it means to run a social media platform at scale, and right now they’re only at about 2% of their waitlist, so they’re probably doomed, since they lack the funding or revenue to make bsky itself large *and* not a toxic dumping ground.

Max Kennerly Apr 30, 2023

@dangillmor @mmasnick I know it makes me finicky, but:

1) boilerplate EULA terms
2) minimal moderation capability
3) no block feature, then rushed out block feature

Suggest to me that Bluesky really is ill-prepared to run a social network. They're going down the usual techbro path of putting 45% effort into engineering, 45% effort into looking cool for a handful of investors, 10% effort into solving known difficult problems of products like theirs.

Fifi Lamoura Apr 30, 2023

@maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick The mistake is thinking the social part is anything more than a means to another end. It's like how Facebook and Twitter are really advertising platforms pretending to be social media. I suspect BS really a shopping mall* that will promote crypto but also allow the use of regular money too but with incentives for using crypto (just like NFTs main purpose was money laundering, grifting and getting more people to buy into crypto). This inevitably gets sold as "rewarding content creators and helping small businesses" but that will get enshittified fast and is marketing spin. Anything built as an advertising/marketing platform is also innately a propaganda machine because propaganda is just marketing an ideology. None of the central social and political issues of Facebook or Twitter are being solved via BS but that's not it's intent anyway, the holy grail of advertising platforms masquerading as social media is integrating crypto and having the control that China has over the internet (except it's a gaggle of ruthlessly selfish bigoted billionaire manchildren in control).

*Shopping malls were designed to be social spaces where people congregate and shop, their primary function is obviously commercial but the hook was to make them social. Kids and seniors hung out at the mall because malls were designed to be hung out in (they're designed to function like a "third space" as a way to entice people into spending more money there). This is in contrast to strip malls, that very rarely function as third spaces as well as commercial ones.

Grant R. Gulovsen Apr 30, 2023

@fifilamoura @maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick I think you've nailed it. Although the crypto/Web3 nature of Bluesky has been intentionally downplayed, that's what Jay Graber is best known for (just look at the articles Jay posted on Medium leading up to being tapped as the Bluesky CEO):

https://jaygraber.medium.com/

Jay Graber – Medium

Read writing from Jay Graber on Medium. Developer, writer, CEO at Bluesky. Every day, Jay Graber and thousands of other voices read, write, and share important stories on Medium.

Medium

@gulovsen @fifilamoura @maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick

Erin Conroy May 2, 2023

I agree.

@maxkennerly @dangillmor that's incorrect. If they didn't have plans to fix all that you'd have a point. But they did all this with plans to fix things. It's a question of timing. They haven't launched yet (only beta testing) because they knew all along that they need these things for launch. Very different from "tech bros" who just don't know any better. The Bluesky team actually understands this stuff.

joel b Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor Are you saying that leaking block lists over the API was all part of their plan?

Furthermore, federation is so vital it really makes me wonder why they think they can work on other features while it pinning a TODO on the most important. I predict when they finally implement it there will be all sorts of edge cases that will lead to poor adoption. The endgame being abandoning the feature due to lack of user interest.

Once you are in their walled garden, why would they ever choose to let you out?

@skotchygut @dangillmor @maxkennerly they WANT to let people out. They have said all along that their ultimate focus is on the protocol. Bluesky, the service, is just supposed to be a reference example to test the protocol.

There's a chicken and egg problem in developing federation AND other features (remember, Mastodon implemented blocks 7 months after launching).

This is why Mastodon has *not* launched. They know what they need.

@mmasnick @skotchygut @dangillmor @maxkennerly

nix Apr 30, 2023

Last line supposed to say *Bluesky I think?

I guess I'm inherently more skeptical of corporate entities. They can say they're planning it all the want but it doesn't mean much to me until they do it. I wouldn't have recommended Mastodon to anyone when it didn't have blocks, I wouldn't recommend BlueSky to anyone when it doesn't have federation.

CubeThoughts Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @skotchygut @dangillmor @maxkennerly Is there a monetization strategy for AT/Bluesky, to develop the protocol and the reference implementation? Even a public benefit needs revenue.

Max Kennerly Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @dangillmor Sure, Bluesky has a plan for moderation: the 'community' will do it, via server-level moderation and third-party 'community labeling' and so forth.

Which is a plan, I suppose, but it's not operational. Their primary moderation method is not even alpha testing yet. If it's true they know what they're doing, then the takeaway is they don't really care about moderation at all, it's an afterthought.

https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/4-13-2023-moderation

Composable Moderation

David Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor Based on the Matthew Yglesias incident, the real #Bluesky moderation policy is Bluesky will ban people who annoy the #elite social media people they want to post on their platform. This isn’t a bad business decision - in fact I would say it’s a good business decision because it makes moderation a lot easier. But it’s unsurprising the non-elite would hate such a policy.

Elizabeth From Snowland Apr 30, 2023

@maxkennerly @mmasnick @dangillmor i absolutely want nothing to do with BlueSky amother platform for bots, white supremacists and NeoNazis to thrive

@hedgehogerb @maxkennerly @dangillmor what? They have been booting the few neonazis who got in.

@maxkennerly @dangillmor not having everything ready to go *pre-launch* is very different than not caring about moderation. This is disingenuous and you know it.

Random Damage 🌻Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor moderation and blocking are MVP features for a social media app these days, since we all know that they are critical to a successful platform

I would say that their beta is premature from a technical perspective and looks like a FOMO marketing stunt

@RandomDamage @maxkennerly @dangillmor incorrect.

Random Damage 🌻Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor yeah, I think you are wrong, too.

I'm not sniffing around for the next great social network, so I have a particular bias against hype

@RandomDamage @maxkennerly @dangillmor yeah. Don't go on it yet. No one's asking you to. I'm just telling you your assumptions are wrong. But it's cool. Stay away

Random Damage 🌻Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor don't worry, I will.

It's clearly not ready yet, which is exactly what I said

Half Cocked Law Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor even if their plan was in action, its an invitation for brigading and abuse. Rely on people reporting and training the AI? Garbage in, garbage out.

Max Kennerly Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @dangillmor I don't think it's disingenuous to point out that Bluesky (1) isn't ready for moderation at scale and (2) likely won't be ready for moderation at scale anytime soon.

@maxkennerly @mmasnick @dangillmor https://progressives.social/@chargrille/110286207887749108

Robert M Apr 30, 2023

Erin Conroy (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Dorsey will be happy with one arm of #Bluesky being used by his advisor Ali Alexander to plan the next armed Proud Boys/GOP attack on the Capitol building - and the other arm being used by you to fruitlessly bemoan SCOTUS corruption & the New Jim Crow voting restrictions, & what he & Musk undoubtedly delight, behind closed doors, in referring to as "woke nonsense." The $ & power asymmetry makes this work for the GOP. No content moderation means no pesky Congressional hearings for him & Musk.

Mastodon progressives

@maxkennerly @dangillmor are you talking about the protocol or the service? Because that's the part people keep confusing.

Louis Ingenthron Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor When there's only one service on the protocol, what exactly is the distinction?

@LouisIngenthron @maxkennerly @dangillmor the question is what are they building? Because that drives the decision making. People are assuming the choices were made out of ignorance rather than with a larger goal in mind.

Louis Ingenthron Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor I wish projects I worked on were given such a benefit of the doubt.

@LouisIngenthron @maxkennerly @dangillmor ok. The point here is simply that the Bluesky team has been very public about its plans. And people act as if they're winging it. That's the part that is frustrating

dave May 1, 2023

@mmasnick @LouisIngenthron @maxkennerly @dangillmor ignorance and larger goals are not mutually exclusive, they're often the same thing.

We know that a major part of the underlying intentions of Dorsey et al are to try and make a social network that's out of reach of over-bearing governments. This is a noble goal.

I'm cool with giving everyone free speech, even the bad guys. Everyone knows that when governments create rules to target the bad guys, they eventually start using them against the good guys too. So as much as this might piss people on the left off, you kinda have to protect fascist's right, or at least their ability to publish, if you want environmentalists to also keep that ability.

The problem is that their approach to how individuals curate their own experience on bluesky is based on a misunderstanding of what censorship actually is.

People have a right to speak, but people also have a right to not listen.

In the minds of the long termists, decisions like no instance level blocking and forcing users to publicise their personal blocklists are to discourage and to put a black mark against those who would censor others.

In reality, the individual or even a group of individuals choosing not to listen to certain people is not actually what censorship is, and these devices and design patterns which bluesky think are encouraging open debate are actually painting a target on vulnerable people who are under no obligation to listen to fascists whether they have a right to speak or not.

Ed Bott Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor Isn't a crucial part of Bluesky's USP the fact that you don't need to understand the difference between the protocol and the service? Especially compared to Mastodon?

There's a major issue of trust here that is coloring the argument. From your posts, I infer that you trust Bluesky to act in its users' best interests and to rapidly fix what other people say are dealbreaking flaws.

If you're more skeptical, you get to a different argument pretty quickly.

Mike Masnick ✅May 1, 2023

@edbott @maxkennerly @dangillmor I trust them to make a protocol in which we don't have to trust *them* and can trust others if we don't.

Half Cocked Law Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor "we plan to fix our terrible contract" is one of those things I have read way too many times in way too many cases to put any credence in.

Noah Cook May 1, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor I think that explaining Alpha/Beta* products to people without that experience is a bit like the moment, many years ago, when I realized that Schoolhouse Rock had not prepared me for the reality of what a bill does while it's sitting on Capitol Hill.

*The distinction between Alpha and "Closed Beta" is marketing and scale

Noah Mittman

Apr 30, 2023

@maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick @drskyskull Designing for the users of a system is soooooooooo much more boring than just designing the system am I right

HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴May 1, 2023

@maxkennerly

The key word regarding #BlueSky being #Going down.

@dangillmor @mmasnick

Noah Cook May 1, 2023

@maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick In fairness, the very nature of difficult problems is such that you're realistically not going to want to devote more than 10-20% of your resources to them. You need to put 80-90% of your resources where they're needed and useful.

I'm witholding judgement on Blue Sky for now. My experience in policy and programming has been that implementation is where the Real World gets to exercise its veto over the best laid plans of mice and men.

Keith Ammann Apr 30, 2023

@dangillmor @mmasnick I have an account on Spoutible. I definitely feel like there’s something a little off about it, but it’s mainly the fact that it feels like late-stage Daily Kos in a feed format, owing to who's signed up and who hasn't. I’m curious what "weird choices" Mike thinks Bouzy has made, because a lot of it just seems like "vibes" to me.

Dr. Gnu Apr 30, 2023

@dangillmor @mmasnick Based on this I checked out nostr. I didn’t see anything except crypto pumping and groyper memes. Maybe I missed something.

Mike Masnick ✅May 1, 2023

@coeurdepyrite @dangillmor there are a lot of crypto people there. not all, but they do tend to flood the feeds if you don't follow other people.