Dan GillmorApr 30, 2023
@mmasnick done by far the best job of chronicling the Twitter/Musk follies and the resulting social media diaspora. His 6-months-later piece, on where we stand in what I hope will be a massive move to decentralized networking, is a must-read: https://www.techdirt.com/2023/04/28/six-months-in-thoughts-on-the-current-post-twitter-diaspora-options/
Six Months In: Thoughts On The Current Post-Twitter Diaspora Options

Today is six months since Elon took over Twitter and began this bizarre speedrun of the content moderation learning curve in which he seems to repeatedly… not learn a damn thing. Over and over agai…

Techdirt
Show threadMax Kennerly

@dangillmor @mmasnick I know it makes me finicky, but:

1) boilerplate EULA terms
2) minimal moderation capability
3) no block feature, then rushed out block feature

Suggest to me that Bluesky really is ill-prepared to run a social network. They're going down the usual techbro path of putting 45% effort into engineering, 45% effort into looking cool for a handful of investors, 10% effort into solving known difficult problems of products like theirs.

Apr 30, 2023 at 10:57amWeb
Show threadFifi LamouraApr 30, 2023

@maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick The mistake is thinking the social part is anything more than a means to another end. It's like how Facebook and Twitter are really advertising platforms pretending to be social media. I suspect BS really a shopping mall* that will promote crypto but also allow the use of regular money too but with incentives for using crypto (just like NFTs main purpose was money laundering, grifting and getting more people to buy into crypto). This inevitably gets sold as "rewarding content creators and helping small businesses" but that will get enshittified fast and is marketing spin. Anything built as an advertising/marketing platform is also innately a propaganda machine because propaganda is just marketing an ideology. None of the central social and political issues of Facebook or Twitter are being solved via BS but that's not it's intent anyway, the holy grail of advertising platforms masquerading as social media is integrating crypto and having the control that China has over the internet (except it's a gaggle of ruthlessly selfish bigoted billionaire manchildren in control).

*Shopping malls were designed to be social spaces where people congregate and shop, their primary function is obviously commercial but the hook was to make them social. Kids and seniors hung out at the mall because malls were designed to be hung out in (they're designed to function like a "third space" as a way to entice people into spending more money there). This is in contrast to strip malls, that very rarely function as third spaces as well as commercial ones.

Show threadGrant R. GulovsenApr 30, 2023

@fifilamoura @maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick I think you've nailed it. Although the crypto/Web3 nature of Bluesky has been intentionally downplayed, that's what Jay Graber is best known for (just look at the articles Jay posted on Medium leading up to being tapped as the Bluesky CEO):

https://jaygraber.medium.com/

Jay Graber – Medium

Read writing from Jay Graber on Medium. Developer, writer, CEO at Bluesky. Every day, Jay Graber and thousands of other voices read, write, and share important stories on Medium.

Medium
Show threadErin ConroyMay 2, 2023

@gulovsen @fifilamoura @maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick

I agree.

Show threadMike Masnick ✅Apr 30, 2023
@maxkennerly @dangillmor that's incorrect. If they didn't have plans to fix all that you'd have a point. But they did all this with plans to fix things. It's a question of timing. They haven't launched yet (only beta testing) because they knew all along that they need these things for launch. Very different from "tech bros" who just don't know any better. The Bluesky team actually understands this stuff.
Show threadjoel bApr 30, 2023
@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor Are you saying that leaking block lists over the API was all part of their plan?

Furthermore, federation is so vital it really makes me wonder why they think they can work on other features while it pinning a TODO on the most important. I predict when they finally implement it there will be all sorts of edge cases that will lead to poor adoption. The endgame being abandoning the feature due to lack of user interest.

Once you are in their walled garden, why would they ever choose to let you out?
Show threadMike Masnick ✅Apr 30, 2023

@skotchygut @dangillmor @maxkennerly they WANT to let people out. They have said all along that their ultimate focus is on the protocol. Bluesky, the service, is just supposed to be a reference example to test the protocol.

There's a chicken and egg problem in developing federation AND other features (remember, Mastodon implemented blocks 7 months after launching).

This is why Mastodon has *not* launched. They know what they need.

Show threadnixApr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @skotchygut @dangillmor @maxkennerly

Last line supposed to say *Bluesky I think?

I guess I'm inherently more skeptical of corporate entities. They can say they're planning it all the want but it doesn't mean much to me until they do it. I wouldn't have recommended Mastodon to anyone when it didn't have blocks, I wouldn't recommend BlueSky to anyone when it doesn't have federation.

Show threadCubeThoughtsApr 30, 2023
@mmasnick @skotchygut @dangillmor @maxkennerly Is there a monetization strategy for AT/Bluesky, to develop the protocol and the reference implementation? Even a public benefit needs revenue.
Show threadMax KennerlyApr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @dangillmor Sure, Bluesky has a plan for moderation: the 'community' will do it, via server-level moderation and third-party 'community labeling' and so forth.

Which is a plan, I suppose, but it's not operational. Their primary moderation method is not even alpha testing yet. If it's true they know what they're doing, then the takeaway is they don't really care about moderation at all, it's an afterthought.

https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/4-13-2023-moderation

Composable Moderation

Show threadDavidApr 30, 2023
@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor Based on the Matthew Yglesias incident, the real #Bluesky moderation policy is Bluesky will ban people who annoy the #elite social media people they want to post on their platform. This isn’t a bad business decision - in fact I would say it’s a good business decision because it makes moderation a lot easier. But it’s unsurprising the non-elite would hate such a policy.
Show threadElizabeth From SnowlandApr 30, 2023
@maxkennerly @mmasnick @dangillmor i absolutely want nothing to do with BlueSky amother platform for bots, white supremacists and NeoNazis to thrive
Show threadMike Masnick ✅Apr 30, 2023
@hedgehogerb @maxkennerly @dangillmor what? They have been booting the few neonazis who got in.
Show threadMike Masnick ✅Apr 30, 2023
@maxkennerly @dangillmor not having everything ready to go *pre-launch* is very different than not caring about moderation. This is disingenuous and you know it.
Show threadRandom Damage 🌻Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor moderation and blocking are MVP features for a social media app these days, since we all know that they are critical to a successful platform

I would say that their beta is premature from a technical perspective and looks like a FOMO marketing stunt

Show threadMike Masnick ✅Apr 30, 2023
@RandomDamage @maxkennerly @dangillmor incorrect.
Show threadRandom Damage 🌻Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor yeah, I think you are wrong, too.

I'm not sniffing around for the next great social network, so I have a particular bias against hype

Show threadMike Masnick ✅Apr 30, 2023
@RandomDamage @maxkennerly @dangillmor yeah. Don't go on it yet. No one's asking you to. I'm just telling you your assumptions are wrong. But it's cool. Stay away
Show threadRandom Damage 🌻Apr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor don't worry, I will.

It's clearly not ready yet, which is exactly what I said

Show threadHalf Cocked LawApr 30, 2023
@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor even if their plan was in action, its an invitation for brigading and abuse. Rely on people reporting and training the AI? Garbage in, garbage out.
Show threadMax KennerlyApr 30, 2023
@mmasnick @dangillmor I don't think it's disingenuous to point out that Bluesky (1) isn't ready for moderation at scale and (2) likely won't be ready for moderation at scale anytime soon.
Show threadRobert MApr 30, 2023
@maxkennerly @mmasnick @dangillmor https://progressives.social/@chargrille/110286207887749108
Erin Conroy (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Dorsey will be happy with one arm of #Bluesky being used by his advisor Ali Alexander to plan the next armed Proud Boys/GOP attack on the Capitol building - and the other arm being used by you to fruitlessly bemoan SCOTUS corruption & the New Jim Crow voting restrictions, & what he & Musk undoubtedly delight, behind closed doors, in referring to as "woke nonsense." The $ & power asymmetry makes this work for the GOP. No content moderation means no pesky Congressional hearings for him & Musk.

Mastodon progressives
Show threadMike Masnick ✅Apr 30, 2023
@maxkennerly @dangillmor are you talking about the protocol or the service? Because that's the part people keep confusing.
Show threadLouis IngenthronApr 30, 2023
@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor When there's only one service on the protocol, what exactly is the distinction?
Show threadMike Masnick ✅Apr 30, 2023
@LouisIngenthron @maxkennerly @dangillmor the question is what are they building? Because that drives the decision making. People are assuming the choices were made out of ignorance rather than with a larger goal in mind.
Show threadLouis IngenthronApr 30, 2023
@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor I wish projects I worked on were given such a benefit of the doubt.
Show threadMike Masnick ✅Apr 30, 2023
@LouisIngenthron @maxkennerly @dangillmor ok. The point here is simply that the Bluesky team has been very public about its plans. And people act as if they're winging it. That's the part that is frustrating
Show threaddaveMay 1, 2023
@mmasnick @LouisIngenthron @maxkennerly @dangillmor ignorance and larger goals are not mutually exclusive, they're often the same thing.

We know that a major part of the underlying intentions of Dorsey et al are to try and make a social network that's out of reach of over-bearing governments. This is a noble goal.

I'm cool with giving everyone free speech, even the bad guys. Everyone knows that when governments create rules to target the bad guys, they eventually start using them against the good guys too. So as much as this might piss people on the left off, you kinda have to protect fascist's right, or at least their ability to publish, if you want environmentalists to also keep that ability.

The problem is that their approach to how individuals curate their own experience on bluesky is based on a misunderstanding of what censorship actually is.

People have a right to speak, but people also have a right to not listen.

In the minds of the long termists, decisions like no instance level blocking and forcing users to publicise their personal blocklists are to discourage and to put a black mark against those who would censor others.

In reality, the individual or even a group of individuals choosing not to listen to certain people is not actually what censorship is, and these devices and design patterns which bluesky think are encouraging open debate are actually painting a target on vulnerable people who are under no obligation to listen to fascists whether they have a right to speak or not.
Show threadEd BottApr 30, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor Isn't a crucial part of Bluesky's USP the fact that you don't need to understand the difference between the protocol and the service? Especially compared to Mastodon?

There's a major issue of trust here that is coloring the argument. From your posts, I infer that you trust Bluesky to act in its users' best interests and to rapidly fix what other people say are dealbreaking flaws.

If you're more skeptical, you get to a different argument pretty quickly.

Show threadMike Masnick ✅May 1, 2023
@edbott @maxkennerly @dangillmor I trust them to make a protocol in which we don't have to trust *them* and can trust others if we don't.
Show threadHalf Cocked LawApr 30, 2023
@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor "we plan to fix our terrible contract" is one of those things I have read way too many times in way too many cases to put any credence in.
Show threadNoah CookMay 1, 2023

@mmasnick @maxkennerly @dangillmor I think that explaining Alpha/Beta* products to people without that experience is a bit like the moment, many years ago, when I realized that Schoolhouse Rock had not prepared me for the reality of what a bill does while it's sitting on Capitol Hill.

*The distinction between Alpha and "Closed Beta" is marketing and scale

Show threadNoah Mittman Apr 30, 2023
@maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick @drskyskull Designing for the users of a system is soooooooooo much more boring than just designing the system am I right
Show threadHistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴May 1, 2023

@maxkennerly

The key word regarding #BlueSky being #Going down.

@dangillmor @mmasnick

Show threadNoah CookMay 1, 2023

@maxkennerly @dangillmor @mmasnick In fairness, the very nature of difficult problems is such that you're realistically not going to want to devote more than 10-20% of your resources to them. You need to put 80-90% of your resources where they're needed and useful.

I'm witholding judgement on Blue Sky for now. My experience in policy and programming has been that implementation is where the Real World gets to exercise its veto over the best laid plans of mice and men.