imagine if employers had to pay for commute time. they'd figure out really fuckin fast how many jobs can be done remotely.
Mar 7, 2023 at 4:41pmWeb
Show threadmaloki 🍍Mar 7, 2023

@sayyid_qishta I've been thinking about the concept of paying for what it actually costs people to work. (as in increase where necessary etc).

So are you disabled? You get paid more.
Do you need to commute? You get paid more.
etc etc etc. (It's not a compelte thought for fairly obvious reasons, so the examples are very vague and general)

Show thread Mar 7, 2023
@maloki that's a cool premise! like an actual chart of what it means to have "to each according to their need"!
Show threadScott M. Mar 8, 2023
@maloki @sayyid_qishta there'd have to be strict guidelines on the commute thing as there are a lot of societal costs to people choosing to live far away from their work (pollution including CO2, congestion, etc). It would be unfair to those who try to reduce their externalities.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 8, 2023
@apukwa @maloki @sayyid_qishta absolutely. Commuting involves a fair amount of free choice. Being disabled isn't a choice. So the commute should be treated the same as living costlier but closer to work: A lifestyle choice. Governments shouldn't subsidise commuting not just because it's bad for people, economy and environment, but also because it's just unfair.
Show threadmaloki 🍍Mar 8, 2023

@jnbhlr @apukwa saying that commuting is a lifestyle choice is one hell of a take in the capitalist hellscape we're living in.

@sayyid_qishta

Show threadjnbhlrMar 8, 2023
@maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta Sorry, writing from Germany here. While we're quite capitalist here as well, some remnants of the social market economy idea (and partially probably just inertia) prevented us from reaching hellscape level.
Show threadPeluche CeroMar 22, 2023
@jnbhlr @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta
I'm afraid US and European views are not going to be aligned in this one. I think you both are right, by the way.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 22, 2023
@peluchecero @maloki @apukwa I never meant it to be understood binary (Like "if you drive it's 100% your free choice") but also about the grey area. E.G. back when I was a kid, my parents both had to cmmute on some days. Having one car, my mother carpooled with colleagues on these days. So she commuted by car but by the "lifestyle choice" of carpooling (rural area, internet of mobile phones weren't a thing back then) she avoided a car purchase. In the USA there are even HOV lanes on some....
Show threadjnbhlrMar 22, 2023
@peluchecero @maloki @apukwa ...roads (HOV: High occupancy vehicles, 2 or 3 people per car required). Some people say they are great because they save half an hour per trip, some people - by "lifestyle choice" - choose the slow traffic and complain about how miserable their live is and how they have to work two days a week to afford their car to get to work (of course you need an expensive, fancy car with comfy seats as you sit in it all day). And even there I wouldn't assume...
Show threadmaloki 🍍Mar 22, 2023

@jnbhlr @[email protected] @apukwa I'm sure I yelled at you to stop almost two weeks ago.
That means if you end up replying in the thread again, untag me.

Phew

Show threadjnbhlrMar 22, 2023
@maloki @apukwa I'm terribly sorry, I untagged the wrong handle. Sorry!
Show threadjnbhlrMar 22, 2023
@peluchecero @maloki @apukwa ...it's an easy/free lifestyle choice for everyone. E.g. a black trans woman might have a very hard time carsharing with random strangers connected to via app.
Show threadJosephine RobertsonMar 9, 2023
@maloki @jnbhlr @apukwa @sayyid_qishta Right? The city we live in there is *no way* to live in the city center unless you make a very, very good wage. Commuting is the only way the teachers, janitors, cooks, servers, sanitation workers, mail carriers, etc can GET TO WORK. Getting to live near your work is increasingly a privilege.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 9, 2023
@revjorobertson @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta note what I wrote here: https://toot.bike/@jnbhlr/109986846921327684 rephrasing for precision: Commuting in a way that incurs significant (societal) costs is a lifestyle choice, but not necessarily a very free one, especial in the US with their horrible planning. All the teachers etc. still have some choice, e.g. cutting down on floor space to live closer to work for the same cost, or sharing commutes etc.
jnbhlr (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] Sorry, writing from Germany here. While we're quite capitalist here as well, some remnants of the social market economy idea (and partially probably just inertia) prevented us from reaching hellscape level.

toot.bike
Show threadjnbhlrMar 9, 2023
@revjorobertson @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta What really would help if e.g. teachers would quit en mass after some NIMBY-decision about not building housing is made. A clear message like "Dear rich white people, if you don't allow for housing we can't afford to educate your kids" might change some peoples minds.
Show threadJosephine RobertsonMar 9, 2023
@jnbhlr @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta And again, for many of those workers quitting would mean homelessness. Just getting a new job in a country with essentially zero worker protections is... well it requires a safety net we often don't have. I work with families w 3 jobs between 2 adults who are *still homeless.* That's our reality here.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 9, 2023
@revjorobertson @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta well if they are already homeless with a job what's the point? I'm afraid I just can't feel the situation you're describing (I guess usa?). Obviously not everyone in the usa can move to portland but I believe there still are places that are a bit more affordable.
Show threadJosephine RobertsonMar 9, 2023

@jnbhlr @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta Portland is NOT affordable.

And what's the POINT? I dunno, being able to feed their kids, pay for medications, keep the health insurance that keeps them alive???

If you aren't from the US tossing out suggestions that assume a robust safety net, legal worker protections, or any of that isn't helping. We're not stupid over here, we're climbing an ENORMOUS hill and dismissing that isn't helping.

Show threadjnbhlrMar 9, 2023
@revjorobertson @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta I'm not dismissing that it's an enormously difficult uphill battle, but if you try your hardest, work 3 jobs between 2 people for a family, and it's still not enough to afford most basic needs like shelter, one needs to consider that some change needs to happen.
Show threadmaloki 🍍Mar 9, 2023
@jnbhlr please for the love of anything that's holy to you, stop. @revjorobertson @apukwa @sayyid_qishta
Show threadjnbhlrMar 9, 2023
@maloki @revjorobertson @apukwa @sayyid_qishta I planned to, yeah.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 9, 2023
@maloki @revjorobertson @apukwa @sayyid_qishta have a beautiful day!
Show threadjnbhlrMar 10, 2023
@maloki @revjorobertson I might need to point out again that I'm not a native speaker. I find it difficult to pinpoint what you find so offensive. The scenario 3 jobs with 2 adults and kids and still homeless and needing to commute a lot, feeling like it's an uphill battle sounds so toxic to me that the need for change is obvious. One might bear it for like half a year if it enables clearing debt and starting anew, but any longer and likely bad things will happen making the situation worse.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 10, 2023
@maloki @revjorobertson your car could brake down and cost money you don't have, you might get sick, you might get fired. I'm not intending to imply that it's their fault or that nothing needs to be done on a society level because clearly a lot needs to be changed. And I'm not suggesting that changing something individually would be easy. So if you felt I implied anything of that I apologise for my inprecise language.
Show threadmaloki 🍍Mar 10, 2023

@jnbhlr I just got tired of you not stopping.

The whole initial point was "what does it cost you to work., you should Get paid so it's doable to work on job or fewer hours because the extra costs involved".

But you started with that commuting is a choice, which it's not in in most places.

This last post wasn't horrible or anything, but it was just that you had started with arguing about something and not listening. So I had enough. 🤷‍♀️

Show threadjnbhlrMar 10, 2023
@maloki I was trying to shed some light on the grey areas between "free choice" and "choice with a gun pointed to your head". I perfectly understand that commuting feels unavoidable and can be unavoidable when given certain constraints, so I would claim that I am in fact listening. I try to challenge some assumed constraints though.
Show threadPatrickleeMar 22, 2023
@jnbhlr @revjorobertson @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta there is “homeless” and then there’s hopelessly homeless without any ability to know where your next shower, clothes or meal will be found. I’ve been the former and known many of the latter.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 23, 2023
@patricklee @revjorobertson @apukwa @sayyid_qishta Could you please paint a picture of a "homeless" situation for me? Is it Trailerpark living? 3 Jobs between 2 aduls and homeless sounds like a violation of basic human rights to me and should be considered a reason to grant that family asylum in another country.
Show threadPatrickleeMar 23, 2023
@jnbhlr @revjorobertson @apukwa @sayyid_qishta not having anyplace to live. No walls or roof to call your own, for me it was my car and cheap motels.
Show threadJosephine RobertsonMar 9, 2023
@jnbhlr @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta I really don't think you understand the gravity of the situation in many places. 10 years ago when I moved here you needed to make $80,000 a year to afford a 400 sq foot EFFICIENCY apartment. A desire for a big house is not the issue. And blaming people for "commuting" in many parts of the US is like blaming individuals for getting COVID when there's nothing being done to stop it. It isn't an individual problem.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 10, 2023
@revjorobertson I do have some understanding of the US situation from some urbanist youtube and such, but Iam afraid I am relying on you to fill in some context for me. If you read closely what I've written, I'm not blaming people, but I'm in fact acknowledging that they have severe constraints. Also I'm implying that the right way to fix it would be to fix the planning. Have a beautiful day!
Show threadjnbhlrMar 9, 2023
@revjorobertson @maloki @apukwa @sayyid_qishta Sounds like you should make the decission to move or get involved with city planning. It's sad that your city is like that. As @SheDrivesMobility uses to say: Everyone should have the right to live without a car.
Show threadAmariMar 22, 2023
@apukwa @maloki @sayyid_qishta selling my house and starting over on a mortgage because my new job is further away isn’t very practical. I’d work closer but this company is very small - the next location of theirs is many hours from me.
Show threadScott M. Mar 22, 2023

@amari @maloki @sayyid_qishta in Canada the government softens the blow somewhat by allowing you to deduct all your moving expenses if your move gets you 40km closer to a new job.

Other incentives to live closer can be made too

Show threadAmariMar 22, 2023

@apukwa I appreciate that Canada does that. I live in the US, so it’s not applicable for me. Additionally, I only live 52km from my work. And moving for one job doesn’t take into account my spouse’s job location or if I had more than one job, which I have had.

It’s also still really terrible to sell your house and buy another one just because you got a different retail/customer service job. It really doesn’t make sense. I am not resetting my mortgage if I don’t have to.

Show threadScott M. Mar 22, 2023
@amari right, my point is the government (wherever you are) can do more to help people live closer to work. It's something that is in the best interests of society at a whole to encourage.
Show threadJaxMar 8, 2023
@maloki @sayyid_qishta that would be an ideal scenario but sadly my first thought is that it would decrease their chances of getting the job, because we all know most businesses only care about the bottom line and would be less likely to employ staff who are going to cost them more :( Its dire, and I wish it wasn't so.
Show threadmaloki 🍍Mar 8, 2023

@JaxVent
Hi, vague incomplete thought means there's details missing.

Further replies specified "not under capitalism", well rather in communist orgs or co-ops etc.

Instead of being defeatist about it in our, albeit short, conversation, look for opportunities where it's possible, or you know just listen.

@sayyid_qishta

Show threadJaxMar 8, 2023
@maloki @sayyid_qishta I don’t think there’s any need for that tone in your reply, but this isn’t Twitter so I’m not going to argue with you nor double down on my opinion. Which is all it is.
Show threadmaloki 🍍Mar 8, 2023

@JaxVent thank you for the tone policing. Highly appreciate it. I've only been here for 6 years, I'm pretty aware this isn't Twitter. Tywm.

O/

@sayyid_qishta

Show threadmmbyMar 8, 2023
@maloki @sayyid_qishta I feel the pay issue is just a knob on the machine, we need to change the indicators by which we diagnose the machine: we should be measuring economies by how many needs of the populace are met, instead of GDP and try to optimize for that
Show threadjnbhlrMar 10, 2023
@maloki @sayyid_qishta Assuming the employer has to pay disabled people more, that idea would lead to unemployment of disabled people because noone would want to hire them when they cost more. In Germany we have a system where employees that don't employ as many disabled people as they should (5%), they have to pay money. That money goes to employees that hire more disabled people than they are required to, e.g. paying for special workplace equipment. Sounds good in theory.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 10, 2023
@maloki @sayyid_qishta About making employers paying for commute: That would likely create a toxic lock-in effect for poor, badly connected neighbourhoods. If you need to commute more, you don't get hired. If you're poor, you can't move to a place closer to job opportunities, as they are likely more expensive.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 10, 2023
@maloki @sayyid_qishta Now if you move that idea to the state level, like in germany where we have a tax deduction for commuting, you effectively subsides commuting, especially for richer people (richer people pay higher income tax). This means less money for other stuff, more cars on the road, more roads required, more environmental polution, ... so this shouldn't be done and the money should be spent on social housing, ideally close to job opportunities.
Show threadmoopetSep 21, 2023
@maloki @sayyid_qishta I like the idea that the less people want to do the work the more it pays. So if people don't like cleaning drains, drain cleaners get more pay.
Show threadChu 朱Sep 21, 2023

@maloki @sayyid_qishta

I think this would backfire really fast.

My friend's mom is a social worker (long retired now). Her first job (with a Masters degree) was taking over for a man who was moving onto something else. She was told upfront that she would be paid less because she didn't need as much money as she had a man (her husband) who would take care of her.

Show threadsiderealMar 7, 2023
@sayyid_qishta Renting a hotel room for a business trip? Tax deductible. Renting a car for a business trip? Tax deductible. Are you a private contractor commuting to work? You're entitled to mileage fees. Literally only regular wage workers who live in normal houses and commute in normal cars are punished.
Show threadjnbhlrMar 8, 2023
@sidereal @sayyid_qishta i suppose you're writing from the usa? In Germany, we have tax subsidies for people to get them commuting longer distances.
Show threadLily StarMar 7, 2023
@sayyid_qishta Just subtract commute time from your work hours for the day, done.
Show threadpearwaldorfMar 7, 2023
@sayyid_qishta Ed Zitron talked about this as "soft wage theft" and I had to stop reading and stare at the wall for a little bit
Show threadjnbhlrMar 8, 2023
@pearwaldorf @sayyid_qishta imagine if people wouldn't have to commute as much and pay as much for housing bercause there are no stupid, racist policies forbidding to build sufficient housing.
Show threadRipperdoc. Miya IronamiMar 7, 2023
@sayyid_qishta Kinda related: in France, your employer must reimburse 50% of the cost of the public transit you take to go to work. (Source: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F19846/personnalisation/resultat?lang=&quest0=0&quest=)

Unfortunately, there is no such scheme for private transport. it would be great if you could be compensated, for instance, for your commute time on a bicycle.
Remboursement des frais de transport domicile-travail (salarié du secteur privé)

Les frais de transport correspondent à des dépenses engagées par le salarié pour se rendre sur son lieu de travail. Ces frais peuvent être remboursés par l'employeur et exonérés de cotisations dans certaines limites et sous certaines conditions.

Show threadFlorent Viel 🦫Mar 7, 2023
In fact EU law says commute time is effective work time and should be paid accordingly (https://www.fastcompany.com/3063893/the-eu-says-that-some-commuting-time-counts-as-paid-work) at least for some kind of jobs
Show threadEthan 🌒Mar 7, 2023
@sayyid_qishta i dream
Show threadTeknikal_DomainMar 7, 2023
@sayyid_qishta Slightly sarcastic counterpoint: No just specify that if you don't live within 10-15 minutes of the office then you're not eilgible for the role
Show threadJake Hildreth (acorn) Mar 7, 2023
@tek_dmn @sayyid_qishta I had something similar at my last job. It got struck down by the state supreme court.
Show threadSharon JohnsonMar 7, 2023
@sayyid_qishta LOVE this idea.
Show threadElias ProbstMar 7, 2023
@sayyid_qishta I was very open to my new employer that I take commute time into account when comparing the offers I had on the table…
And I ended up with a "work in whatever way you want, as long as it works for the team (which is also mostly remote)" agreement.
Show threadEric McCorkleMar 7, 2023
@sayyid_qishta watch how fast cities get public transit and walkable layouts