delta  
its funny to me just how much of the external discourse about the fediverse revolves around people being completely unable to comprehend the concept of hosting something with no profit motive

so much of the commentary on "the viability of the fediverse" is written by people just so deep into capitalist brainrot they've completely lost touch of the idea that one might host something for a community, or just do something for people for the hell of it

people need to remember, the feeling that you're helping a community or that you've done good can also be an incentive, money is not the only incentive to do things as much as capitalist brainrot tries to tell you it is
Mar 2, 2023 at 11:54pmWeb
Show threadRairiiMar 3, 2023
@delta "am i out of touch? no, it's the fediverse who's wrong"
Show threadJae AKA J4Mar 3, 2023
@delta how can they shitpost without profit incentive
Show threadcafkafkMar 3, 2023
@delta I host stuff because it's fun, corporate drones melt down when I tell them... which makes it even more fun!
Show threadNot a Spring OnionMar 3, 2023
@delta Every time someone approaches me on the street asking for direction, I answer "And how much would you be willing to pay for this information?"
Show threadnicki xaphania mouse šŸMar 3, 2023
@delta i've had something knocking around in my head that we're seeing a specific form of capitalist realism, call it internet realism or social media realism. People can no longer imagine a world with a free and open internet that's not controlled by a small handful of corporations. Everything that's created or shared must be exploited as fuel for the great Contentā„¢ļø machine. Even criticism of, say, Twitter mainly takes place on Twitter itself, driving engagement for the platform it's criticising.
Show threadundead enby of the apocalypseMar 3, 2023
@delta I donā€™t like the term ā€œbrainrotā€ but otherwise I agree
Show threadLibertyForward1Mar 3, 2023

@delta
"people need to remember, the feeling that you're helping a community or that you've done good can also be an incentive, money is not the only incentive to do things as much as capitalist brainrot tries to tell you it is"

Bravo. This is beautiful

Show threadParabolicMirrorMar 3, 2023
@delta This reminds me of the 08 election, when they tried to mock Obama for being a community organizer.
Show threadgrinMar 3, 2023
@delta except those who aren't ignorant yet see serious problems with a highly segmented loose group of stricly guarded opinion bubbles.
I see viability problem not in hosting but in the non-existing "community".
Still, unless everyone get bored it will go on, even if only used by the amount of people equals to current gnutella users.
Show threadLisPiMar 3, 2023

@grin @delta The main reason for #Gnutella's decay is that it's profoundly insecure in its #clearnet-centric state.

An #I2P-only implementation would possibly be usable, but like most protocols not designed around pluggable transports as a first-class concern, it'd require significant deviation from the standard protocol & bespoke implementation.

Show threadgrinMar 4, 2023

@lispi314 @delta Well it's been before security/encryption became chic, but I know no similar alternatives. People are using bittorrent+dht+pex I believe, which is not _that_ more secure.
It was gone IMO because it became segmented and slow.

Fedi is different though: it should be a common communication platform instead of segregated opinion bubbles, and I believe this is its demise as well. Broken by design.

Show threadLisPiMar 4, 2023

@grin @delta Oh no indeed, #clearnet torrenting is also completely insecure for anything which could be in any way compromising.

I'm inclined to agree to a point, it would be preferable to have something far closer to a #P2P setup. Unfortunately connectivity issues (end-to-end on my CGNAT? No! - average ISP) & privacy (network analysis & dragnet) on the clearnet make that a bit inconvenient.

At the #ActivityPub level, single-user instances aren't meaningfully different from multi-user.

Show threadLisPiMar 4, 2023

@grin @delta But unlike say... #SecureScuttlebutt there's no explicit affordance made for relays or TURN-like convenience whatsoever.

There's an assumption that end-to-end connectivity is possible over low-latency networks.

Show threadgrinMar 4, 2023

@lispi314 @delta
> aren't meaningfully different

Oh you believe so? Try to follow the "public stream" on a single-user server! šŸ˜Ÿ

Show threadLisPiMar 4, 2023

@grin @delta Well, discovery & bootstrapping is a problem yes (which #SSB handles via public posts in pubs).

On #Mastodon proper I've never actually used it much, I was more interested in the global federated feed the instance showed. That became less & less useful as the network has grown and it now streams by too quickly to really read anything.

Show threadgrinMar 4, 2023
@lispi314 @delta ah, you're missing the evil algorithm ranking it for you! šŸ˜ƒ
Show threadLisPiMar 4, 2023

@grin @delta No need for that, #Gnus-style scoring & ordering is what I want.

You can probably find my other rants about Mastodon with that tag.

Show threadgrinMar 4, 2023
@lispi314 @delta and what do you get? šŸ™‚
Show threadLisPiMar 4, 2023
@grin @delta At the moment I'm still stuck on Mastodon with chronologically ordered lists & a home timeline of whatever those I followed post or boost.
Show threadgrinMar 4, 2023
@lispi314 @delta and I dunno about you but for me it does not scale.
Show threadLisPiMar 4, 2023

@grin @delta Indeed. That's why I want the proper #Gnus-style scoring (https://www.gnus.org/manual/gnus_90.html#Scoring) with arbitrary #Lisp functions for determining individual posts' scores.

It can't really imagine better customization of prioritization that doesn't obfuscate details.

Gnus Manual: 7. Scoring

Gnus Manual: 7. Scoring

Show threadgrinMar 4, 2023
@lispi314 @delta I fear one would need spend more time to write scoring rules than reading the messages. šŸ˜‰
And create an adaptive (throughout time) scoring requires, well, just the same as facebook uses. (Except they adaptively handle interactions.)
Show threadLisPiMar 4, 2023

@grin @delta Depending on the precision you want, you could very well make helper command functions so that from the general UI you can just type a key & change the priority of certain keywords, users, servers, media types, etc.

My ideal use-case involves pulling all new Activities in my inbox to my local machine once in a while & reading through that. Full #AsynchronousCommunication approach.

With most presumably having short automatic expiration unless I mark them for keeping.

Show threadParetoOptimalDevMar 15, 2023
@grin
Gnus already has adaptive scoring, I use it exclusively.
@lispi314 @delta
Show thread TropicalPitcherPlant Mar 4, 2023
@lispi314 @grin @delta https://cdrom.tokyo/main/public Fill in the registration form. Now. x)
Akkoma

Show threadLisPiMar 4, 2023

@ZalophuszJaponicus @grin @delta Very aesthetic, but does it the other problems mentioned?

It does at least address the incomplete/mostly-missing #C2S #ActivityPub implementation that #Mastodon suffers from...

Show thread TropicalPitcherPlant Mar 4, 2023
@lispi314 @grin @delta I havenā€™t read the previous messages, just saw that you were still using Mastodon and complaining about it. I donā€™t think itā€™s been implemented yet, but maybe it will be in the future, there are already many more features than on Mastodon.
Show threadgrinMar 4, 2023
@ZalophuszJaponicus @lispi314 @delta If I understand you correctly you wanted to convey the message "try Akkoma" but failed completely?
Show thread TropicalPitcherPlant Mar 4, 2023
@grin @lispi314 @delta Failed completely ?
Show threadJade (Jay)Mar 3, 2023

@delta Also one of the things I hate when it comes to "let's play the pro and con game" in ethics. Like...shouldn't it already be enough to say that something is MORALLY the right thing to do?!

"Ah, no, we need a REAL incentive for people to not act like complete assholes. They need to get something out of it themselves." It infuriates me every.single.time how this narrative fuels the growing indifference and apathy when it comes to exploitation and outright abuse AND downplays all those things

Show threadTim Erickson, @stpaultimMar 3, 2023

@delta

I would just like to suggest an alternative perspective, coming from an open source community where people invest huge amounts of time building products that others rely upon personally and for their businesses, and they do it for free.

There is concern for the viability of these products, not out of any obsession with profits, but out of concern for the health and well being of the volunteers shouldering the responsibility for keeping this infrastructure working.

Show threadTim Erickson, @stpaultimMar 3, 2023

@delta

Maintaining a server requires time and special skills. Maintaining it for free, becomes a huge responsibility for maintainers who take on the responsibility. Without any kind of financial support, there is a huge risk of burn out.

Burn out is not simply an inconvience for users, it sometimes means that the maintainer burned out because they pushed themselves beyond what would have been a healthy amount of free contribution.

Show threadTim Erickson, @stpaultimMar 3, 2023

@delta

The server I'm on underwent a huge DDOS attack yesterday and tens of thousands of users were inconvenienced for almost 24 hours.

Volunteer maintainers did a great job dealing with the attack and getting the server up and running again as quick as they could, while doing their day jobs and having a personal life.

Is this a sustainable model? I'm not sure. Does that mean I'm obsessed with profits or just aware of the costs that this work can have on volunteers?

Show threadZaini Mar 3, 2023
@delta or spite, being motivated by spite works too
Show threadThe DoctorMar 3, 2023
@delta Can I quote you on this?
Show threaddelta  Mar 7, 2023
@drwho can i ask what for exactly?
Show threadAdamas NemesisMar 3, 2023
@delta Indeed.
Show threadPaul KemnerMar 5, 2023

@delta

A contributing factor might be ignorance of how much infrastructure is needed. It doesn't seem like you need a Cisco server rack and a host of paid staff.
Other thing is that you don't need to have an instance with a million accounts.

Show threadPPNMar 5, 2023
@delta there is also this very weird overlap between those people telling you about the viability of the fediverse and the ones telling you that you should work hard for your job to the point of crunching/sleeping at the office like what is happening on the bird site. šŸ™ƒ
Show threadChookMother šŸ‡¦šŸ‡ŗšŸ¦˜Mar 5, 2023
@delta Excellent point. Someone needs to explain that "visibility" is not a path to human happiness.
Show threadSecond Chance BikesMar 6, 2023
@delta
Exactly. I worked for pay from age 16 to 69. I have repeatedly said the most satisfying job I've had (and there were some good ones for $) has been operating Second Chance Bikes starting at age 70. Delivering bikes to the refugee agency, knowing what community will benefit, is extremely satisfying. Hosting an instance is analogous. Using your skills to do work you enjoy, contributing your time, knowing people whom you will never know benefit. (And hoping for a donationšŸ˜ƒ!)