Zhi Zhu

"Once you're willing to debate whether one group of people or another should be abused, then abusing and expelling people from society is something that is up for debate."
~@JuliusGoat

Really good thread about being "reasonable" when discussing intolerance from A. R. Moxon.

Read the whole thing:
https://mstdn.social/@JuliusGoat@mastodon.social/109486257175259797

Reminds me of the "Paradox of Tolerance" essay.

#Racism #Sexism #Bigotry
#LGBT #Homophobia

A.R. Moxon, Verified Duck 🦆 (@[email protected])

Imagine you have a friend. Let’s call him Rick Reasonable. Now imagine you have an enemy. Let’s call your enemy Bart B. Oilingwater. Bart is a real piece of crap. Here's what he does: Whenever he sees you, he throws boiling water at you. Usually you dodge it, but every once in a while, he catches you with a bit. You have to constantly be on the lookout for Bart, because if you let your guard down, it’s scalding water time!

Mastodon
Dec 10, 2022 at 1:37pmWeb
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 10, 2022

The Paradox of Tolerance

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

#Paradox #Philosophy
#Politics #WWII

Paradox of tolerance - Wikipedia

Show threadZhi ZhuDec 10, 2022
Comic strip based on Karl Popper's "The Paradox of Tolerance"
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 12, 2022

The Paradox of Tolerance disappears if you look at tolerance, not as a moral standard, but as a social contract.

If someone does not abide by the contract, then they are not covered by it.

In other words: The intolerant are not abiding by the terms of the social contract of mutual tolerance. Since they have broken the terms of the contract, they are no longer covered by the contract, and their intolerance should NOT be tolerated.

#Tolerance #Intolerance #Morality #Society #Meme #Memes

Show threadR. Leigh HennigDec 12, 2022
@ZhiZhu Wait, so is the argument here that you *should* tolerate the intolerant? Because if so, then hard disagree
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 12, 2022

@semioticstandard

NO!

The intolerant are not living up to the social contract of mutual tolerance. Since they have broken the terms of the contract, they are no longer covered by the contract and should not be tolerated.

Show threadR. Leigh HennigDec 12, 2022
@ZhiZhu okay, gotcha!
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 12, 2022

@semioticstandard

I edited the post to make it more obvious. 🙂

Show threadshyduroffDec 10, 2022
@ZhiZhu … +++ …
Show threadpgcdDec 10, 2022
@ZhiZhu the best answer to that is (I paraphrase because I don't remember the exact wording): "Tolerance is not a moral stance, it's a contract. If one of the parts doesn't abide by the contract, they're not covered by it".
Show threadVentura JakeDec 10, 2022

@pgcd @ZhiZhu this view of tolerance as a contract needs to be promoted far and wide. It's a soundbite sized idea for a soundbite world.

#tolerancecontract #tolerance #paradoxoftolerance

Show threadpgcdDec 10, 2022
@VenturaJake @ZhiZhu I'm sorry I don't recall where I saw it so I can't offer proper attribution, but I wholly agree. It's just a sensible and understandable way of putting.
Show threadVentura JakeDec 12, 2022
@pgcd
Kant talked about utopian "Perpetual Peace" in the context of globalization requiring so-called peace treaties. I don't remember anything about what to do about the breaking of such treaties.
@ZhiZhu
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 12, 2022

@pgcd @VenturaJake

I think I found the source.

"Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty. Tolerance is a social norm because it allows different people to live side-by-side without being at each other’s throats...

But the model of a peace treaty differs from the model of a moral precept in one simple way: the protection of a peace treaty only extends to those willing to abide by its terms."
~Yonatan Zunger
https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376

#Tolerance #Intolerance #Morality #Society

Tolerance is not a moral precept - Extra Newsfeed

The title of this essay should disturb you. We have been brought up to believe that tolerating other people is one of the things you do if you’re a nice person — whether we learned this in…

Extra Newsfeed
Show threadpgcdDec 12, 2022
@ZhiZhu @VenturaJake that's it, thank you. Mine was clearly a dumbed down version =)
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 12, 2022

@pgcd @VenturaJake

NOT dumbed down, just differently worded. Probably because contracts seem more relevant to your everyday life than peace treaties.

I'm going to make a meme of this idea (using the quote from the article). But I wouldn't have found the article without the inspiration of your post. Thank you! 🙂

Show threadpgcdDec 12, 2022
@ZhiZhu @VenturaJake following this space for news!
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 12, 2022

@pgcd @VenturaJake

An Answer to the Paradox of Tolerance

"Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty.
...
[And] the model of a peace treaty differs from the model of a moral precept in one simple way:
the protection of a peace treaty only extends to those willing to abide by its terms.

It is an agreement to live in peace, not an agreement to be peaceful no matter the conduct of others."

~Yonatan Zunger
https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376

#Tolerance #Intolerance #Morality #Society

Tolerance is not a moral precept - Extra Newsfeed

The title of this essay should disturb you. We have been brought up to believe that tolerating other people is one of the things you do if you’re a nice person — whether we learned this in…

Extra Newsfeed
Show threadVentura JakeDec 12, 2022
@pgcd not at all. You remembered the spirit of it, which imo is the key.
@ZhiZhu great work hunting this all down!
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 12, 2022

@VenturaJake @pgcd

The Paradox of Tolerance disappears if you look at tolerance, not as a moral standard, but as a social contract.

If someone does not abide by the contract, then they are not covered by it.

In other words: The intolerant are not following the rules of the social contract of mutual tolerance.

Since they have broken the terms of the contract, they are no longer covered by the contract, and their intolerance should NOT be tolerated.

#Tolerance #Intolerance #Meme #Memes

Show threadBodhipaksaDec 17, 2022

@ZhiZhu @VenturaJake @pgcd

Yonatan Zunger addressed this in an essay called "Tolerance Is Not a Moral Precept." It's worth reading, I think. [Edit: I just read the small print on the graphic above and realized it's a paraphrase of the same essay!]

https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376

Tolerance is not a moral precept - Extra Newsfeed

The title of this essay should disturb you. We have been brought up to believe that tolerating other people is one of the things you do if you’re a nice person — whether we learned this in…

Extra Newsfeed
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 17, 2022

@bodhipaksa @VenturaJake @pgcd

Indeed he did. I credit Yonatan Zunger with inspiring the meme at the bottom of the meme.

I tried making a meme with his exact words, but people kept misunderstanding it. So I re-worded it to be a little more easily understood (I hope).

Here's the meme that quotes Yonatan Zunger exactly.

Show threadBodhipaksaDec 17, 2022
@ZhiZhu @VenturaJake @pgcd Your paraphrase is a very helpful one. I realize now it's because you used the much better phrase "social contract" instead of Yunger's "peace treaty" that I didn't realize the meme was from the essay.
Show threadZhi ZhuDec 17, 2022

@bodhipaksa

Thank you!

Show threadBodhipaksaDec 17, 2022
@ZhiZhu You're welcome!
Show threadPalmAndNeedleOct 21, 2023
@ZhiZhu @VenturaJake @pgcd Huh... Things can be so simple if you frame the problem correctly!
Show threadshow 🌹Dec 10, 2022

@ZhiZhu

This same argumentation is also valid for our own political movements and bubbles.

A recent example is the big pacifist and leftist movement against the russian war in Ukraina. This movement largely tolerates and partially even pushes undemocratic, inhuman and racist statements.

We also need to defend our values in our own movements.

Show threadKent PitmanDec 14, 2022

@ZhiZhu for myself I have distilled this down to:

Where there are no rules, bullies rule.

#politics #speech #tolerance #freedom

Show threadhomo stultensDec 13, 2022
@ZhiZhu @JuliusGoat This is a deliberate tactic: shifting the Overton Window. Getting people *used to thinking about* whether x-group of people should be abused and expelled is the initial purpose of insisting there is a discussion to be had.