Mastodawn

Ezekiel Nov 20, 2022

If you’re new to Mastodon, you may at some point find that you’re being pressured to put your posts behind a content warning (CW). Although CWs make sense for things like images of violence or nudity, some people are bullying others to put CWs on discussions of politics, racism, etc.
Please know that you should not feel pressured to obey these individuals. They do not speak for all. If someone does not want to be exposed to these topics, Mastodon gives them all the tools they need to avoid them, such as keyword filters and the ability to block or mute people who are posting things they don’t like.

@thomasareed There is a balance to be struck. Just saying no to CW is as wrong as saying CW with everything.

Thomas Reed Nov 20, 2022

@DoctorDNS you should notice I didn’t say don’t use CW

@thomasareed So noted. I was trying (and it looks like unsuccessfully) to note the differences. I like the CW feature but can see it could be both over-used and a focus for CW-Nazis :-)

As I say there is a need for balance.

Thomas Reed Nov 20, 2022

@DoctorDNS Yeah, I think it’s a useful feature, but there are a lot of folks right now who seem to be trying to censor anything they don’t like by putting pressure on people to hide that kind of content behind CWs. That’s just nonsense, and give an unfriendly air to the community, leading people to think that we don’t want their discussions here.

@thomasareed yes indeed. and that is an issue. I suspect more an issue for today. This reminds me a little of Sept 1993 when AOL opened Usenet to the masses. Upo till then, it was crazy in September as new college/uni students arrived but quickly settled down. With AOL, it became perpetual September:
Today is 10672th of September 1993

shandrew at web Nov 20, 2022

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed should I post my reply and quote your entire message on the top or the bottom 😱

@shandrew @thomasareed
OMG the top vs bottom posting wars. As a member of the Big-8 management board (after tale and other dictators left) we saw a lot of that.

I feel I am reliving those times.

Sara Nov 21, 2022

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed this is exactly the analogy I have been making for the last couple of weeks, and then I've had to explain the Long September (and Usenet) to a bunch of millennial/GenZ folks (who can't quite believe that we had anything but two rocks to bang together to communicate with, way back in 1993....)

@sarae @thomasareed
I have a #PowerShell script to tell me which day of September 1992 is is (aoltime.ps1)

J Lam 👩🏻‍💻👩🏻‍🎨Nov 20, 2022

@thomasareed @DoctorDNS CW isn’t censorship - it’s a psychological safety, empowering tool

@kangaroo5383 @thomasareed
Done well - I agree. My analogy is that I may wish to know the "score" in Ukaraine but do not want to see the gore.
The big challenge is for a poster to know what might trigger psychological damage to others. For most empathetically inclined people, that is straightforward. But I feel social media gives some an over-inflated view of themselves and just do not care (in the moment etc.).
And many are ignorant, of what sets others off! 😉

Sarah B Nov 21, 2022

@DoctorDNS @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed
I'm in agreement with you that there are some taking the CW too far.

Someone posted a *link* to a story about covid, and explained in the post that it was an update on current status, and was chastised for not covering the post with a CW. That was extreme, imho.

@Logintaken @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed
A good example of the difficulty of getting the balance right.

I sure do not know the answers, but I really appreciate there IS a CW button here that could help my well-meaning post from offending someone unintentionally.

Sarah B Nov 21, 2022

@DoctorDNS @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed yes, I agree!

Sarah B Nov 21, 2022

@DoctorDNS @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed
More verbosely:
When it comes down to it, there are so many ways to say the same thing, and we make choices all the time around that.

And part of those choices include the language and tone, because we want to tread carefully, or shout obscenities, depending on our purpose and intention.

And the CW button is just part of that myriad choices. But it's a very useful addition to the toolbox, and speaks to the intended positive and friendly, and most of all respectful, culture of Mastodon. Hence, I wholly agree with what you say, I like the fact that it's there as an option, and as a signal.

@DoctorDNS @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed there is no way anyone can know the psychological state of everyone that will read their toot when they read it. People should get in the habit of adding CW as a subject line for everything. People should get in the habit of changing the visibility of their replies.

They should. But they won't.

@DoctorDNS @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed mastodon would benefit from readers having the ability to add CW that would only be effective based on individual options. (If you want to see the CW from other users or people you follow or the person who boosted it.)

Tom Ribbens Nov 21, 2022

@tob @DoctorDNS @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed If everything has a CW label, nothing has a CW label anymore.

@tomribbens @tob @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed

Again - it is all a question of balance. I am less than clear where the balance lies!

voronoi potato Nov 21, 2022

@tob @DoctorDNS @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed

Okay so that just isn't true since it's not a binary yes/no but rather a text field with information on what kind of content is in the message. There's a real difference between cw:food and cw:butchering . You could do cw everywhere for everything and it would still be helpful. The issue is that it would also be an unsustainable burden on people posting.

@DoctorDNS @Vopo @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed @tomribbens @tob With the tools Mastodon gives for CWs, it’s really not any more of a burden than putting a subject line on every email, though?

It’s essentially the same: just a summary line letting people know what’s in the message.

voronoi potato Nov 21, 2022

@DoctorDNS @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed @tomribbens @tob

I get that some people can't, executive function issues for example, or they don't want to add a click through for their audience because it could be a barrier. I feel the opposite is likely true, but they didn't consent to it being required. That's not the rules here and they shouldn't be bullied into it. What I think is not acceptable is characterizing cw as censorship or useless if we use it extensively.

@Vopo
Agreed, it is definitely not censorship, nor is it useless if someone uses it extensively.

Personally I have been using it on political posts, or posts about the hellsite, and find it kind of fun to come up with creative subject descriptions.
@tomribbens @DoctorDNS @tob @thomasareed @kangaroo5383

voronoi potato Nov 21, 2022

@mivox
Part of why I reacted so strongly is the "cw is censorship" is often used as a abilist dogwhistle. I agree it's such an incredible feature and I'm so glad you can say _why_ something is cw.

🆘Bill Cole 🇺🇦Nov 21, 2022

@tomribbens @tob @DoctorDNS @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed

I'm not sure that is true.
I have taken to using a "CW" on all of my #Mastodon toots, simply because I can. I find them helpful not because I am easily "triggered" by anything people post much about, but for the same reasons that I use a Subject in email. I like knowing what I'm about to read. I want a topic tag on EVERYTHING.

I figure that if I model that behavior, sans nagging, maybe others will pick it up.

Vidar Hokstad / Galaxy Bound Nov 21, 2022

@kangaroo5383 @thomasareed @DoctorDNS I think the problem is that the UI is lacking, so it feels like a usability issue to have a lot of them, coupled with the way it is framed as a warning and somewhat hidden in the UI.

I see some have suggested treating it more like a subject, but still suffers from the "catch-all" approach to the auto-expand setting.

I have auto-expand on, so liberal use of CWs is fine with me, but of course that defeats the purpose for people who need some of them.

@vidarh @kangaroo5383 @thomasareed
Great points on this subject. I think we are agreeing there is no magic answer or that one answer fits all.
As an aside, I love we can have this discussion and remain civil.

voronoi potato Nov 21, 2022

Cw are not censorship, I agreed with your previous points but I strongly disagree with the idea that an accessibility tool is somehow censorship. It allows more people to read it, not fewer. You can cw, or not cw, but please don't characterize the things we need as censorship. If there is a cw, often if I prepare myself, I can read it without getting triggered. If there is no cw I have to mute the person, which is actually censorship.

Thomas Reed Nov 21, 2022

@Vopo @DoctorDNS “Is censorship” ≠ “feels like censorship.” Imagine how you would feel if you were a minority, posting about an experience with racism, and someone told you that you needed to hide that behind a CW because not everyone will want to see that. I’d be very surprised if you didn’t feel attacked and “censored.” And I’d argue that most people wanting that content behind a CW are the very people who most need to see it.

@thomasareed @Vopo

Good analogy.

voronoi potato Nov 21, 2022

I agree with your general argument . I don't think we should be bullying people to cw. Not everyone can or should cw. I also really don't want this to get coopted into an ableist message that people who cw politics, racism etc are somehow censoring the issues. For many people cw allow us to read and engage. Many people who add political cw are people who are directly affected by the political issues they cw. It is triggering because it is a lived experience.

voronoi potato Nov 21, 2022

People shouldn't be tone policing, they are using the cw to tone police. The tone policing is the problem, not the cw.

I'm pushing this small weird point because language of characterizing cw as censorship is used by ableists to demonize people with disabilities. Using cw for pol, racism etc is fine, and inclusive. demanding people to accommodate is tone policing and not acceptable. Not all content can be made accessible, not every creator has the energy.

@thomasareed Asking for content deemed sensitive or in general touchy behind a fair warning is not censorship. All it takes is one click to reveal it's contents. There is even an option that allows you to see the contents of these posts by default, without having to click them to see what they are all about. Some of us use fediverse as a way of escapism, word filters can only get you so far.

@person @thomasareed @DoctorDNS putting your own posts behind a content warning isn't censorship. *requiring* other people to do so is (suggesting is fine ofc)
you are free to not read the posts of people who do not post in a way that makes you comfortable; it's unreasonable to require a wider community to accomodate everyone, under penalty of instance blocking
(not saying you specifically are doing this, just that there are other people who do so)

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed

What's a "CS-Nazi"?

@mitka @thomasareed an attempt at humour (aka the soup nazi). I su spect there are some who will demand CWs for what many might call inoocouse. It is a tough balance to strike.,

Today’s Tom Sawyer Nov 20, 2022

@DoctorDNS @mitka @thomasareed PUT THIS BEHIND A CW 🙃

Krister Renaud Nov 20, 2022

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed CWs have their use, but it is good to have client side settings as well that requires clicking before showing images or link previews. Not all authors will use CWs and there are a lot of things that can trigger people so it is impossible to know all things that need CW.

@krenaud @thomasareed
Great point and thanks. For the more fragile, client side controls are really helpful foo.

Dani — MLT(ASCP)Nov 20, 2022

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed Asking people to CW their lived experiences with homo / transphobia, racism, discrimination, whatever is honestly bullshit. Just because it makes someone uncomfortable doesn't mean it should be hidden.

Sarah B Nov 21, 2022

@warkittens @DoctorDNS @thomasareed but we're not talking about "uncomfortable ", the whole point of describing it as a trigger is that is triggers something vastly more intense and distressing than simply uncomfortable.

And the point that is already well-made above, is that you don't know what will or won't trigger someone (perfectly illustrated with your assumption that it will be limited to discomfort); really it's just a matter of polite, kind consideration to alert people that something may be there, rather than simply exposing them (forcing it on them) without care, concern, or warning.

IMHO: if in doubt, just use a CW. It's not hard, and it could go an awfully long way to making sure even just one person doesn't have an awful day or few.

Dani — MLT(ASCP)Nov 21, 2022

@Logintaken
You should go follow @shengokai /@zirk.us and listen to someone who is Black and has a lot of good points on all this. He's posted a lot about the culture here. I can only explain so much from my white but queer perspective. His opinions are not isolated.

https://twitter.com/IBJIYONGI/status/1589628437601615874?t=fXOMqk1Mdzi0CwBy0e_EpQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/Tinu/status/1592290279901790209?t=lH277H4m7eR3PssG7EoQag&s=19

https://twitter.com/mekkaokereke/status/1594376397811695617?t=PFrTlfsoFTyLpeMroupotw&s=19

Godspeed y'all. You are missing the point real hard.

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed

Chanda Prescod-Weinstein on Twitter

“People saying it doesn’t matter which Mastodon instance you join are being misleading: 1. Each one has different moderation policies 2. Not every one allows you to formally “move” there 3. Who is on that instance and who they follow determines your federated timeline content”

Twitter

Sarah B Nov 21, 2022

Not sure how we (or at least, I) am missing the point, real hard or otherwise (?) where at least one of those threads you include is in vehement agreement with what I've posted, and with others that i was also agreeing with ... but these seem like good links, which is what matters (to me).

(PS methinks you may be assuming colour?! Or even similar/related context that may be as importantly related to safety, or even who I already follow and listen to ...)

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed

Sarah B Nov 21, 2022

Just a thought on other people's perspectives:

If a content warning is needed for n=1 user's safety, it doesn't really matter how many posts you point to about how CWS are all bullshit and you should be allowed to post whatever you like irrespective of that one person who's safety you've just compromised.

Mastodon, or wherever else, isn't safe if it's not safe for everyone. If you want to post wilfully or otherwise whatever content, come hell or high water, then by all means, but there are other platforms for that. This thread essentially started with a request for people to be respectful, which is really the culture that Mastodon aims for*. It's hardly a huge ask for people who want to use it, to abide by that.

*the fact that entire instances can be blocked because they're truly awful places, that tread well beyond CWs, makes it perfectly clear that this is an aspiration, not a fact!

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed

Dani — MLT(ASCP)Nov 21, 2022

@Logintaken
I'm not even talking about awful things. That's the entire point. Which is where we're at cross purposes. I've CWed many things. But — I live mere blocks from where George Floyd was murdered by police in Minneapolis. People needed to see everything I posted on Twitter, to see that we were in this together and that it wasn't a massive city destroying riot like the Right Wing said it was. We needed to show the National Guard intimidating us in our homes.

For some people this would be triggering, but some things people cannot look away from. YMMV.

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed

Sarah B Nov 21, 2022

And therein we will never agree.

I don't care how important you think your message is, I don't believe you have the right to post something, knowingly and deliberately, that will create a crisis for someone, just because YOU have decreed that they don't have the right to be safe.

And you will not convince me otherwise, because fundamentally I don't think you have the right to take that away from someone.

And it's ironic, because the core issue for the (other) Black person was safety, and his right to it.

So it kind of looks like you're trying to have it both ways ...

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed

Andreas K Nov 21, 2022

@DoctorDNS @thomasareed Exactly.

It's a balance act.

It's also a bit “know your” followers.

So I do post political stuff that is rather general and potentially of general interest without a CW.

OTOH, political details? Clearly a case for a CW, with a description, what it's about.

@thomasareed
One thought to amplify your point about opinions on CW not applying to all.

It can vary by server, and that's okay! Life is complicated, some topics and audiences have difference needs than others.

For example, you'll see CW applied to photos of people's faces on Autism-oriented Mastodon instances.

There is also some discussion about changing this function to "Content Notice" instead.

Thomas Reed Nov 20, 2022

@mitka Sure, different instances may have different rules. That’s one of the interesting differences between Mastodon and Twitter. However, it’s important to keep in mind that one instance’s rules don’t apply to all.

elf™Nov 20, 2022

@thomasareed Someone said we 'need to post CWs on food posts'

I said to myself what in the fuck is that all about? It made little to no sense, period.

Thomas Reed Nov 20, 2022

@elf Apparently someone got upset about a photo of a turkey posted by @k8em0. That’s pretty ridiculous, IMO, especially at this time of year. People like talking about and posting pictures of food, and that’s not exactly a controversial subject.

elf™Nov 20, 2022

@thomasareed @k8em0

Oh ffs, they need to filter for food if they are going to flip their lid over something thats so inoffensive....thanks for the info about what happened.

elf™Nov 20, 2022

@thomasareed @k8em0 And frankly, pearl clutchers are the reason why the US is in the mess it is now, folks want to react and freak out over the actions or lives of others, and the mob follows them. Its a very bad pattern of behavior.

If I dont care for something I just avoid the topic, instead of running to the fainting couch and gathering my cronies to complain about it.

Jacob White Nov 21, 2022

@thomasareed @elf @k8em0 Seeing images of food out of the blue is a common trigger of traumatic episodes or relapses for people recovering from eating disorders. I've never entirely understood it, because it's kind of unavoidable in general. But, if in hyper-specific communities or if out of consideration for specific people you know, it *might* make sense. In general? kind of ridiculous to expect everyone to do.

It's definitely one of the more controversial CWs, one with lots of valid arguments against it for psychological reasons too.

elf™Nov 21, 2022

@enigcryptist @thomasareed @k8em0 If folks are that hair-triggered then its probably best to use a number of filters to save themselves a lot of grief. If they dont IMO they are just wanting to cause a scene. I get that folks have issues; but doing nada to prevent having them triggered is not very wise, is it?

Jacob White Nov 21, 2022

@elf I kinda agree. But understandably, images are hard for people to filter for though without keywords, no matter how good Mastodon's filtering is. IMO, CWs are courtesy for if and when reasonable filters like that fail (e.g. not everyone sends food pics with the words "Thanksgiving food" or "turkey" or ...).

This is one of many examples where CWs lead to headache-inducing discourse (which I'm contributing to here, admittedly). IMO it's best to just draw the line somewhere, and be open + compassionate to at least considering otherwise if people give convincing reasons to do more. Is it worth the effort? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

elf™Nov 21, 2022

@enigcryptist maybe we can bug the powers that be for a premade set of filter CWs that lets a poster tick off a box: food, politics, sexual content etc so its very easy to CW an image

Jacob White Nov 21, 2022

@elf Yeah i dunno. What I do like with some implementations of CW (e.g. Tumblr, which is a hack over tagging) is that the tag filters will flag content if anyone in the reblog/reply chain (path in engagement graph? idk what you'd call it) tags the CW appropriately. Dunno if that's possible in Fediverse though because that's lots of cross-server interactions to trawl, but auto-expand if not flagged by filter like that would be cool.

elf™Nov 21, 2022

@enigcryptist Also: this saves me from having to *share* my foods, which I rarely do. Its my burrito and I stole it fair n square! MINE MINE~

Dontgivadam Nov 20, 2022

@thomasareed Thank you. I was wondering about that. It would seem that common sense should prevail here.