Mastodawn

@patricia thanks for writing this.

Folks here on #Mastodon should read this, and take this seriously.
Clearly, there's a culture around how things are done here at Mastodon, but maybe there is a better way to teach folks about that culture instead of blocking/banning folks outright.

If #Mastadon is to be a place for well-meaning folks on the internet, threatening people may not be the best way forward.

And it is hard to know who means well, but @[email protected]'s call out is pretty clear cut #IMHO

an instance where "well-meaning" is not clear-cut:

I have refrained from posting anything about last night's elections here in the US, because I know I would be dinged about CWs. That makes me not want to post about elections/politics.

That does not feel very free-speech-y.

But I can also easily imagine discourse around US politics and elections getting out of hand (as intentioned by the OP), so a CW may not be a bad idea for all things politics (?). I dunno!

Darius Kruythoff Nov 10, 2022

@krishnavp I'd like to stay here and improve this culture, so I'm busting my head on how to solve this.

I live in EU and couldn't care less about US elections, but it's up to me to curate what I see. You should feel free to speak out about what matters to you.

Feels to me we should use hashtags more and clean our feeds as we see fit, rather than threaten others into doing it for us.

@dkruythoff the thing that has been working well for me: picking what I follow. I follow hashtags, and folks from the intro posts. So far this has been good enough.

Not sure where this starts to breakdown, or why there would be a need for others to *necessarily* use CWs to suit my interests in my feed. If I do not like something, I guess I should be able to just unfollow (?).
Not sure where that would break down, and fail to scale.

Darius Kruythoff Nov 10, 2022

@krishnavp sounds like a sane strategy to me. I believe warnings should be used for that purpose: To warn for extreme or undesirable content.

I can't imagine they were meant to prevent people from every single thing they dislike.
We're sharing space here. We need to at least show some tolerance and be able to look away.

Jake Ouellette Nov 10, 2022

@dkruythoff @krishnavp this is the problem though, how does a collective define "undesirable" content?

People on here have different power structures to their environment. Asking people without power to be more civil to people with power is inherently intolerant

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/03/14/700897826/when-civility-is-used-as-a-cudgel-against-people-of-color

When Civility Is Used As A Cudgel Against People Of Color

For people of color, "civility" is often a means of containing them, preventing social mobility and preserving the status quo.

NPR

Jake Ouellette Nov 10, 2022

@dkruythoff @krishnavp (note: I see from your recent boosts you probably essentially agree here on this point)

Darius Kruythoff Nov 10, 2022

@Jakeout @krishnavp yes I believe I do.

As a socially awkward white male, I thread carefully around these issues.
I know I can be blind to my undeserved privileges, and just want people to be free to speak up.

Thus, I take issue with the cultural problems I'm seeing here.

Maybe we can use the freedom to create collectives to our advantage somehow.

I'm struggling right now as I'd just like to see this fixed.

@dkruythoff @Jakeout I agree with you Jake! And thank you for the ref on NPR (just finished reading it).

to the issue of defining "undesirable" content: I think it can help with clarifying what it means for a specific collective, or in Mastodon's case: a specific server/instance.

I would like to see pre-defined examples/presets of CWs that I can pick from when I am posting something. And mods should be able to change those CW presets ... making them different for different instances. (1/2)

@dkruythoff @Jakeout

... this open ended nature of the CW feature, where a poster can put *any CW that they deem fit* is giving a powerful feature with little guidance/guardrails.

e.g., if I m on a photography instance, I think I would understand if some of the CW pre-sets were "Not original content", or "memes" (random examples). Because those CWs might make sense to that community and calling out examples like that would give anyone a sense for what is acceptable in that community. (2/2)

@krishnavp Hi, I'm a little confused by your post. If you're worried about getting dinged for CWs for posting on US politics. Why not just add "US politics" as the CW? Why refrain from posting instead?

@diego it’s about friction (one more thing to do when posting) and my want to be in people’s good graces (and generally not wanting to upset/bother folks)🙂
a CW (for me) implies something that may upset folks … I guess. Eg, I get that folks find US politics unappealing or triggering.
So why would I want to post about something, which even I admit may bother someone … even if it comes with a CW?
So I refrain. Unless I feel really strong about it. So in some ways, it’s a good thing? Not sure.

https://someone.elses.computer/@TheCybermatron/109320168604846395

@krishnavp while CW does imply upset. I think the use on Mastodon has evolved past that. And in some instances/interfaces, it's actually called a "subject line".

This thread may provide greater insight:

Cybermatron (@[email protected])

Content warning: Thoughts on CWs

Someone Else's Computer

@krishnavp but as a summary. I think of it likes this. I don't live in America. So I don't care as much about US politics. Therefore I may skip over a few posts that have a CW of US politics. Otherwise I'd have to skim all of them and it gets annoying.

On a more mundane note. I'm no longer a PhD students. If people are looking advertise to PhD students a position, a CW for that also keeps me from getting spammed irrelevant stuff.

Don't see the downside.

@diego to clarify: I would have no trouble if someone used a CW for their posts.. no matter the subject (eg, PhD Positions posting). But I am not going to go ask them to add CW if I think they are missing one.

I would certainly not do this as a mod, unless I have explicitly called it out in the community guidelines of the instance I run. And even then I would be mindful of how I communicate it. 🙂

@krishnavp completely agree

@diego and I am still picking up on that. But as you can see, some of the newcomers are trying to grapple with how things work here. 🙂 thanks for the explainer!

@krishnavp also in terms of friction. If adding a subject line to an email adds enough friction to stop you from emailing, maybe that amount of friction is actually a good thing. Sometimes we shouldn't be posting just because we can, but because we've thought about it.

vijay🍿☕️🍼Nov 11, 2022

@diego that is something I have been thinking about a lot. And I certainly value the "subject" line in emails, as it forces me to think about what it is I am talking about 😂

So yes, I agree that it is a good thing.

CWs are certainly a powerful and versatile feature. And I consider them to be a net positive, not just in Mastodon, but in social media in general. I hope other sites (FB et. al.) steal this feature.

Our attitudes on how we expect our fellow people to use it, is another matter 🙂

Mackaj Nov 11, 2022

@krishnavp @diego

I had a similar experience when I first joined. I had someone thought police me about not wrapping a post about UK politics in a CW. It stung. I just wanted freedom to express myself.

But when I read the guy's post with a clear head what he was actually telling me was that he wanted to be able to scroll through things faster, and return to #UKPolitics posts when he had time to digest them in one go.

Seems to historically be a thing here.

Ben Nov 11, 2022

@mackaj @krishnavp @diego exactly this. It gives you the option to dip in and out of topics at your leisure. Politics especially can raise the blood pressure.

vijay🍿☕️🍼Nov 11, 2022

@benmcfc @mackaj @diego I take the lessons here. Nothing against CWs or their usage. And I agree that social media and politics mix poorly.

how far do you take it with the CW policing though? Pretty sure someone will think that this thread should have been under a CW. ⚠️

Here’s how I see it most days: Any social system needs rules, but also the tolerance for bending and breaking those rules — like English and it’s grammar 🤣

Ben Nov 12, 2022

@krishnavp @mackaj @diego yep! Absolutely. There will be a learning curve too. People need to cut people some slack for sure.

Also, on English:
https://mastodon.scot/@Freyalyn/109321852456050420 😅

Freyalyn 🍁 🍂 🍃 🍄 🌻 (@[email protected])

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.” #TerryPratchett, who can always be relied upon for saying really interesting things that are true*. *For a given value of true. ETA - I have been corrected; this is quoted from James D Nicholl.

mastodon.scot

Mackaj Nov 12, 2022

@benmcfc

Haha, I love that James D Nicholl quite. So true. Thanks for the link.

@krishnavp @diego

vijay🍿☕️🍼Nov 12, 2022

@benmcfc @mackaj @diego absolutely brilliant re:English(!!) 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

vijay🍿☕️🍼Nov 11, 2022

@mackaj @diego yea. Something I am learning here. Certainly a new experience on social media. I just figured that CW would be used for the typical things that needed warnings — Violence, Nudity, etc.
This seems like a more extensive use of a CW system.

I guess I was comparing this to the rating system that movies use… but that is more about content being age-appropriate/not.

This clearly is different.

Jonny Miskatonic Nov 10, 2022

@krishnavp seems pretty clear cut to me. Use content warnings. You're saying you're "afraid" to post about something because you'd get dinged for not using a content warning. Seems you know very well you should be using one, you just don't want to because "free speech"

Marcel Bollmann

Nov 10, 2022

@krishnavp I feel many people equate CWs with "less visibility" or "offensive content", when in reality they should just be seen as a label that says "hey, I'm gonna talk about this thing you might not want to read about right now, here's a heads-up".

I feel this is just being respectful, but many others seem to feel it's "censoring" them in some way.

@mbollmann with you 💯… and I think CW can be used both ways. I certainly see myself doing it.
I think we run into issues when folks take a more inflexible view of when/how it should be used? And certainly take things too far when some one else’s usage does not align with their own expectations.

Reminds me of how strict mail-list mods were in the older days of the internet before social media. Or how folks can be on stackoverflow.com today! 🤣

So some guidance on how to use CWs may be good.

Julie moved to @[email protected]Nov 10, 2022

@krishnavp I've seen a lot of people use CWs as a way to hide a wall of text so people can choose to expand it to read it. In those particular cases, it seems like there's a need for a different feature, like "More behind the cut!" back in the days of LiveJournal.

@robotfactory such a feature would be a welcome addition(!) also reminds me of how I triage my email between interesting/not by reading the subject line of each email (without opening anything 🤣)

Sibin Nov 10, 2022

@patricia great thread! Saw it on twitter but wanted to come here and boost it as well.

Michael 🏴‍☠️ Fleet Nov 10, 2022

@patricia Weird, I can see replies to this post in a web browser, but not via #LibremSocial (my Mastodon client/network).

@f1337 on my post here? Hm, maybe I need to look at my settings, I just set it up a couple of days ago.

Pavneet Singh Saund 🙌🏾Nov 10, 2022

@f1337 @patricia I can see a few replies. This one, from Helio Loureiro and Mathias Utan H in my web-client, but a lot more in the web interface on your server instance.

I've tried following you, but it says the request is pending - could that be the reason messages aren't propegating?

Pavneet Singh Saund 🙌🏾Nov 10, 2022

@f1337 @patricia cancelled and re-followed without any ending requests now. But still not seeing other replies in my instance (yet). Could be part of the waiting game.

I don't know how this works tbh, maybe I am not "well connected" into the fediverse?

Bodil Nov 10, 2022

@patricia @pavsaund @f1337 Keep in mind fediverse nodes can and do block each other. If you can't see someone's post on your server, it could be because your admin blocked the other person's server. (Another reason I like to run my own, because I get the sense there's been a lot of blocks over straight up masto drama like CW policies in addition to the more wholesome blocking of Gab and pals).

@pavsaund @f1337 I’ll need to take a look at my settings

BjarniBjarniBjarni 🙊 🇮🇸 🍏Nov 10, 2022

@patricia
I'm sorry your fedi experience is disappointing. Just like Twitter, it takes time to find a place where you are happy.

You're not wrong, every culture had failure modes and you've identified one. People can be way too aggressive in their culture policing.

Many see this as their refuge from corp social media, and they are a bit too eager to fight to keep it from becoming toxic in the same ways. So of course it becomes toxic in different ways, because humans.

I hope you stick around!

Bjørn Stærk Nov 10, 2022

@patricia the version of this that made sense to me is that "content warnings" are useful as subjects for longer posts, and for making it easy for followers to ignore content i think not all of them might be interested in. like if i normally write about politics, my followers would _expect_ political posts, so maybe i'll cw only the longer ones. but i might cw a post about programming, because most of my followers aren't interested. the "politics must always have cw" doesn't make much sense.

Werner Nov 10, 2022

@bjoernstaerk @patricia people are more than one thing? I mean, I do run several Twitter accounts to keep things a bit separated, but if someone don't like me taking a political stance on my gaming twitter, or random outlet or jokes on my "serious"/politics account, they are free to unfollow/mute/block.

I CW things that need an actual CW, I don't use it as a "read more" feature.

Bjørn Stærk Nov 10, 2022

@worldwidewerner @patricia sure, and why not? my point was that cw usage can be context specific. maybe your context is politics and gaming and jokes, then there's no purpose to cw'ing any of that, or maybe not even anything at all. but there will be contexts where it's useful to say "here's something you may want to take an active decision before you look at" because it's long, uninteresting for many, - or disturbing. in the context of that person, their followers and the instance they are on.

Anders C. Sørby 🔥🌍 🇵🇸🇸🇩🇨🇩🇺🇦🌻⚛️Nov 10, 2022

@patricia
Direct your anger at the right people. This is just baseless generalizations; prejudice. It is not useful or helpful for any discriminated minority. We definitely need to work on culture that can fit everyone. I think some of the problem is the lack of spread of servers.

Léo 🦋⚲Nov 10, 2022

@patricia I haven't seen in happen yet on my instance, that sounds ... bad :c

I could be wrong but I feel mastodon uses CWs for at least 2 or 3 different purposes and that defeats the point

Pavneet Singh Saund 🙌🏾Nov 10, 2022

@patricia I have seen others comment on usage of CW's int the following manner:

"You don't need to put a CW on a message, but without it I will likely not boost it" - which in my head translates to "you do you, and I'll do me" - this makes sense to me.

I have qualms with people taking it a step further saying "you should not have sent that message without a CW" - unless it's clearly in the server rules this response is not called for. And you are on your own server.

@patricia

The Mastodon archipelago does have a "this is a nice neighbourhood, and we like to keep it that way" aura to it.

However that is not necessarily a bad thing, or a good thing.

Ages ago I made an "entropy law" for online communities, that eventually they all end up in nazi propaganda and Viagra spam.

Any community always balance on the edge. Sooner or later it will fall over, and rarely recover. It's a ongoing balance between recruitment and decay, engagement and trolling.

Somehow, I think Mastodon managed to make a third option.

@patricia Few communities survive Trial By Troll.

However, troll defences also create friction for activists.

I am not naturally into "nice neighbourhoods", but as a strategy it makes sense.

That's how you keep the neighborhood homogeneous

@patricia Not exactly. I'd see it in terms of long-term entropy and short-term balance. A little friction can be a good thing. (Too much and you got yourself a walled garden instead.)

Or to change tack, a city isn't homogeneous, people will largely stay in their groups, but the rest of the city is discoverable and available.

While suburbs are balkanised, into golden ghettos, and not so golden ones, all physically separated.

Mastodon feels like a white suburb to me

@patricia The Internet was once practically all-white.

That changed, though the Great Firewall of China (a little bit), language, and walled gardens like WeChat (a lot) largely cut off the biggest community from the rest,

Internet used to be young too. Facebook changed from mostly students to mostly retirees in 18 years, These change over time. Online will reflect offline.

I would hope Mastodon would be like a city, not a suburb. Cities got #serendipity.

Adrian Froschauer Nov 10, 2022

@jaxroam @patricia But isn't that thinking the reason why places that are called "nice neighborhoods" are mostly white in real life, too?

@AdrianFrosch @patricia

Real-world "nice neighbourhoods" tend to be where upper middle class (and aspiring middle middle class) gather to keep away the less upper middle class and other plebs. Didn't use it as a term of endearment, as these are exclusionary (and boring).

Not necessarily white, depends on who is upper middle class in your neighbourhood.

@AdrianFrosch @patricia

That is also why I went off-tangent from neighbourhood to cities and suburbs.

This is after all an open platform in basically every sense of the word, bit like an idealised city is open for everyone to move in, move out, or meet. But it doesn't force them to do so.

Twitter ten years ago was a bit "Gangs of New York" (now maybe more of a Muskham City). There was no friction, so opposing gangs could meet and fight, and did.

Facebook is suburbia.

Carlo Zottmann Nov 10, 2022

@patricia I took the liberty of getting Threadreader to roll it into one page for easier reading: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1590485665535643649.html

Also, I fully agree.

Thread by @pati_gallardo on Thread Reader App

@pati_gallardo: Ok fine. I have tried to hold my tongue, but there is a line, and when Mastodon folks threaten BIPOC people with getting blocked for not Content Warning when they talk about racism… I need...…

Ingar Smedstad Nov 10, 2022

@patricia It seems to me that #Mastodon do not really agree with itself on what CW really is and how to use it. Every defense seem to focus on different interpretations…

I think the terribly named "Content Warning" should be removed and replaced with a (mandatory?) subject line. Since most people seemingly have auto expand turned on anyway we lose nothing and maybe gain an extra indicator.

This answer seem so easy and obvious to me that I am positive I have missed something.