Breadless Norseman

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Just a guy trying to be a little bit better, every day.

I'm a Finn-Swede American and I can't eat gluten.

#progressive #politics #secular #humanism
#exchristian #exvangelical #agnostic #athiest #ADHD #philosophy #software #engineering #python #science #ScienceFiction #books #music #coffee #tech #lgbtqally #guitar

Pronounshe/him/his

I don't talk a lot about local politics, or how crazy things are in rural Florida these days. I want to share a local story, that's been brewing for a long time, today.

I'm pretty sure most of us have at least heard of book bans in Florida schools. What, I think, goes underreported and under discussed is just how terrifying that is for teachers. You'll find some debate about it, DeSantis says it's not true, but, as Florida schools go back into session this week a lot of the teachers my wife and I know are afraid of accidentally committing a 3rd degree felony. How? By having someone find the "wrong" book in their classroom. They've all emptied the shelves of all books, period, but there's still fear.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/verify/florida-teacher-could-face-a-third-degree-felony-for-using-books-literature-in-class-not-approved-by-state/77-9f5a087f-8dcd-4a99-afe1-c9c23b6201cd

So, how is this playing out in my local school district? I'm not naming names because I think these poor people need a break.

Ever since a Moms 4 Liberty member got elected to our school board last year, it's been wild. Every school board meeting is jam packed with right wingers cursing and often threatening the other board members. There is one board member, in particular, who is often the focus of their scorn. She also happens to be a former principal and the woman who hired my wife for her first teaching job and a former mentor.

Last year someone was waiting by her car after a meeting with a hatchet and threatened to kill her and her family, if you want to imagine the environment here. For a while she quit going to meetings in person, and was allowed to attend virtually, for her own safety, but because of right wing pressure she's not allowed to do so this year.

This background all brings me to something I learned this morning. Back when my kids were in the local school district(we pulled our kids out and my wife left to teach elsewhere in 2021) there was this super sweet, older lady who was the librarian at their elementary school. She really liked our older boy, in particular, who is a voracious reader, and over the years she would tell his teachers just to send him to the library when he was done with his work. He would read, help shelve books, and even sit at the help desk to help other kids. She went so far above and beyond for the school. She organized plays, she bought books out of her own money...she was the glue that held that school together.

A couple years back she took a well deserved promotion to Head Media Specialist for the entire district. As such, when DeSantis began his book banning crusade she was made the head of a group of 7 people who decide, for the entire district, what books need to be pulled from libraries. Because book banning isn't happening fast enough for the Moms 4 Liberty crowd, she was outed at a school board meeting over the summer as the head of this group. No one else was named.

Since then she's endured non-stop threats. It only took me a few minutes to find her social media this morning and it's disgusting and has been, non-stop, for months.

As I was reading it I couldn't help but think of a very brief interaction I had with @StillIRise1963 yesterday. This is just one example of what's happening with the Dems down here, sadly.

@ceejaedevine Ah, the classic “I’m not going to respond to what you said and you implied I’m arrogant for believing that the creator of the universe would get me an adjunct teaching position so obviously I win”

Sorry if I insulted you, I genuinely didn’t mean to, but it sure seems like you don’t care to engage with anything I said considering my whole previous message was talking about how randomness isn’t the only other explanation. 🤷‍♂️

Also, when did I say anything about you being impressionable? All I said was that I wouldn’t use my personal experience as a reason to call Atheists unreasonable for not believing the same thing as me.

✌️

@Skiriki yeah it’s probably very easy to be “calm” and “respectably presenting” and “correct” in political discussions where you wont lose anything yourself but want to take everything away from those “opposing” your “values”. i am absolutely livid and willing to burn any bridge in defending human rights and i am the one who is the problem since my voice isn’t calm and well composed when i face the pure but not-obvious-to-all evil of a calm, well mannered fascist who wants me dead.
@ceejaedevine
Maybe one day I’ll have a personal experience that convinces me so utterly that a God exists that I’ll adopt the theist label. However, If I can’t demonstrate that God’s existence, I would never claim to be sure it exists or fault others for their skepticism because I could always be mistaken.

@ceejaedevine

How does that make a difference? Are you saying that that somehow makes it more unlikely, therefore it MUST be God?

How did you determine it couldn’t have been random? How did you determine it couldn’t have been some person using advanced psychological tricks to mess with you? How did you determine it wasn’t the adjunct fairies who also happen to like porches? How did you determine it wasn’t some evil spirit manipulating you to not follow the trinitarian God of the Bible?

I can think of an infinite number of mutually exclusive explanations that are fully parsimonious with the facts of your experience. We use demonstration as a way of determining which of those hypotheses are even possible. Until the content of the hypothesis is demonstrated to exist, it will always be more reasonable to believe that it is probably some combination of known causes (coincidence + psychology + culture + social factors for example) than a class of thing that has never been demonstrated to exist. But we can also just say “I don’t know what caused it, It’s mysterious to me, but I’m glad to have had this experience that felt meaningful!”. How would it be unreasonable to have that response?

I think you already understand this as demonstrated by your aliens comment earlier. It seems to me like you use the word “God” because it’s a malleable concept that feels comfortable because of cultural biases and the very human desire for meaning given to us by something greater than ourselves. We as a species call that thing God and then imbue it with human characteristics like consciousness and empathy.

All that said, my only contention with you is that you say you “know” God while calling atheists unreasonable. I have no problem with people who hold a personal belief in a God. If that helps you make sense of the world, by all means consider yourself an agnostic theist! However, to claim to “know” that a conscious, cosmic force exists that intervenes specifically in your life simply because you can’t fathom how some series of seemingly connected events happened, despite the fact that each on their own would be utterly explicable if not banal, seems like the height of anthropocentric arrogance to me.

@ceejaedevine I probably wouldn’t consider that purely coincidence either. However, I don’t see why it couldn’t be a combination of coincidences and psychological factors making the combination of events seem more directed than it actually is. Nothing about the scenario you describe is impossible without a God’s intervention and isn’t differentiated from the first scenario except by there being more individual events and the significance you subjectively place on it. Could it be directed by a God? Sure, but to claim one is necessary for that sequence of events is not remotely justified.
@birdpoof I need a song name!

@ceejaedevine

I’m not saying those things are all “random coincidence” either. Humans are pattern recognition machines, combine that with cultural biases, confirmation bias, and other various psychological/physiological responses and it becomes impossible to distinguish between events upon which you have imparted significance and events that are actually significant, let alone caused by some God.

Do you have a way of differentiating those things? Or would you argue coincidence simply does not happen?

@ceejaedevine

Right, but that’s kind of my point. Your “recognition” of a unified force doesn’t mean anything. Humans are wrong about things like this all the time.

Is it possible that the events in my life (and yours) are caused by some God? Potentially, and I’m open to that provided that there is some demonstration of that God existing and doing the things you say they do, none of which you have given here. You’ve just continually asserted “these things happened and it couldn’t be anything else”. On the other hand, at least some if not most/all of those experiences you (and I) have had contained subjective, psychological aspects that act as potential explanations. If I were to adopt your way of thinking, I’d be just as justified in saying “I know those things were coincidence + psychology, it couldn’t be anything else” because I have personal experience of being wrong about the meaning behind some events in my life. Personally, I think both of those positions are unjustified, but one of them posits an entirely ad hoc, mysterious ontology to appeal to while the other tries to use things we know exist (brains/minds) to explain the phenomena. It seems more reasonable to me to go the second route, but I’m still open to the first should new information come to me.

I started responding to you because you were saying that it is unreasonable to “shut the door” on the possibility of God. But as far as I can tell, you’ve said nothing to justify shutting the door to the possibilities _other_ than God, but you’ve done just that.

@ceejaedevine Just to get this out of the way, Saying “I don’t need to believe… I know” misunderstands what knowledge is; a subset of belief. You can’t know something without also believing it. (I know I’m nitpicking his rhetoric, but I think it’s pretty important in these conversations)

That said, I don’t think that really clarifies anything for me. Jung’s definition of God just seems to be a name for the aggregate mysteries in the world and his experience.

I also experience things that I don’t understand and often attribute meaning or agency to patterns and coincidences I notice around me. However, it seems that those responses on my part are fairly reasonably explained by psychology, evolution, etc.. Wherever there are gaps in understanding, I’m perfectly happy to acknowledge those gaps and hope to have an answer one day. If I wanted to, I could refer to those gaps as God and everything that Jung says in that quote could apply to me without issue, even though I don’t believe in a being external to my mind that I call God.

It seems like you believe in an actual being that you call God though, right? Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see how what you said justifies that.