Robin DeRosaKind of confused about how I feel. On the one hand, I am pretty actively looking to extricate myself from Twitter and FB (long game), so wanting replacement platforms that do many of the same things, since I use and depend on Twitter and FB on many levels. On the other hand, I'm also keen to find out what this place can be if it isn't built according to prior or prescripted architectures (especially ones that have so many fatal flaws). Just mulling.
Kate@actualham I just keeping coming back to "studio", and the idea of a creative coworking space. What would it need to have in it for a community of fellow travellers to be able to come here, work independently together, and share as we go? What's the architecture for that? @Bracken
@katebowles @Bracken "Work independently together" is very appealing to me, and very much about what I love about Twitter...
Econproph@katebowles @actualham @Bracken I think we are getting at the formation of communities that might be linked/federated and open-ish, but not absolutely open: a screened-in porch and a front yard vs the middle of public main street that is FB/Twitter.
I don't know Mastodon architecture or code well enuf to say, so I'm only brainstorming (or BS'ing one might say) here. Might there be a way to identify toots as belonging to a particular community. Can't say why yet, but hashtag doesn't seem ..
@katebowles @actualham @Bracken 2) hashtag doesn't seem to do it - too subject specific. I want something that says "all the people in this room" - i.e. my open ed community. Twitter/FB don't do this. For example, I can't separate my family from work colleagues on FB.
Perhaps this is simply an interface issue, with making it easier to assign the people I follow to groups (rooms?) and then have a timeline just for that room and a different timeline for another room.
@econproph @actualham @Bracken Thinking: on Twitter, hashtags have the capacity to become persistent (in Australia, #auspol is a well known one). So a federated studio formation might need the capacity to build out rooms at this point, rather than necessarily forming as rooms right away and then seeing if they work or don't.
The screened sleepout is a lovely model. There's an urban design philosophy of "walkable neighbourhoods" that relates.
@econproph @actualham @Bracken This is the philosophy: https://www.walkscore.com/walkable-neighborhoods.shtml
The issue for any co-working space emerging from social networks is propensity to sameness. That's the issue that was raised at #opened16 and has to be front of mind here, or the "we" quickly becomes a sort mechanism for homogeneity.
Making an intentionally open community is really tough in this climate.
@econproph @katebowles @Bracken I love Tweetdeck columns, and columns here-- I wonder if they could do that somehow. I also like the idea of filtering. What if rooms stay open to all, but you could filter how you experience them? Lots of tools force me to choose between open and closed, and I am more interested in how we can maintain an open ethos while still being intimate/productive/focused, etc....
@actualham @katebowles @Bracken I like your reference to "filters" as an in between open & closed. It's esp attractive if the filters have enormous user-configuration ability.
If I had one suggestion for the Mastodon devs, it would be to create a core/plugin architecture along with frequent releases. IMO, that's the key (along with GPL) that enabled WP to conquer so much of the Web. A common core (not THAT "common core") with stds for user-created/shared plugins. Awesome platform.
Laura Ritchie 🌸@actualham I dream of connection and communication - not replacement. For me, there is function in each platform (not sure I use them all well, but they are different). I crave connection and communication - intellectual and creative stimulus, & as I am the only one who does what I do at my uni, like-minded ppl are few & far between. Diversity inspires me & finding ppl willing to engage is a challenge. That's what I hope for here. A considered conversational playground, different to broadcast
@lauraritchie @actualham I've been popping back to Twitter from here (after initially popping back to here from Twitter), and realise I can see the difference clearly. Twitter is news radio for me, sometimes delivered by friends and fellow travellers. This is a conversation.
I am the least diligent person I know, and yet I keep coming back here.
@katebowles @actualham and it's different to commenting on a blog post- I was wondering about that... If I write a blog post I post it to FB, Twitter, & G+, but would I post it here? I think I might, but not to broadcast a topic, but with a genuine purpose for people to either enter into a conversation here or there. I would share, though, if there was a considered reason.
Is it about politeness and respect for people here? I think of posting to people & not to ether
Christina Hendricks@lauraritchie @katebowles @actualham I have same sense: on Twitter I just post all kinds of stuff to all kinds of people. Here I don't feel that's right. It feels more intimate, and I'm having trouble thinking of what to "say" outside convos like this, to the people that are here that would be interesting/useful to them.
@clhendricksbc @actualham @lauraritchie I think for me the problem was partly solved by selecting to stay out of the public timeline.
@katebowles @actualham @lauraritchie I even have this question just with the group of followers/followees here. Some I know well, some I hardly know at all, some entirely new to me. Feels somehow wrong to just start posting all kinds of random things. But maybe that's fine too b/c that's how to get to know each other, when we post what's important to us?
@clhendricksbc @actualham @lauraritchie I'm very slowly organising my thoughts into a blog about this question. I feel like there are two circles trying to be a Venn diagram here. One is the idea of a community of purpose, gathered around a theme; and the other is a community of people, with something in common. What happens when these two circles manage to overlap? What's in that overlap?
@katebowles @actualham @lauraritchie I feel like this works on Twitter: I have my timeline, then my lists of people who share things in common, then there are hashtags for specific topics. Maybe not venn circles crossing that much, but sometimes. Or maybe mostly just separate columns.
@clhendricksbc @katebowles @actualham I think the 'what's important to us' is a huge thing & important to share/air. For me sharing a bit of music wasn't about performance but about learning & process, & being allowed. @harmonygritz posted something abt ss and engagement that resonated, & was good to hear. If important to you, chances are also important to someone else here
@lauraritchie @katebowles @actualham @harmonygritz Yes, that makes sense. Good way to think about it. Will start sharing more than only participating in conversations that are meta about sharing (although those are really interesting too!).
Maha Bali مها بالي@katebowles @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc i already have generally more deep conversation HERE than on twitter. I am shocked that i remember to check into my phone browser here w/o notifications. That is so unlike me. It is possible i am on Twitter as often as usual but becoz it is routine/seamless. I am here more intentionally and that interests me a lot. It might be the particular ppl and convos, here, now. Temporary or prophetic? #SNoOO
@mahabali @katebowles @actualham @clhendricksbc I really like the idea of 'intention', and it being for such positive reasons. Whether temporary or prophetic, I feel a bit like running in a field of conversational sunshine. (meaning running as something joyful- playing, not running away)
@mahabali @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc This shocks me too -- that I come here without prompts, and despite having a complicated way of navigating in on mobile. I think it's the people we came in with, the space to talk and think, and the surprise dimension of the people we found here.
More and more I think forming our own federated instance will work. But that's real labour and cost for someone.
And the shared socio-ethical labour of figuring out how to sustain that thing.
@katebowles @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc i know Reclaim are looking into it and @daniellynds so two federated options. Because they are people I trust, that appeals to me as one direction. Increasingly, I thinking of its potential as federated instances for events. So you could keep ur mastodon.social account or create a new one in new space. Vs for example Twitter - if u don't have it u cannot participate. Or Slack - closed. The federation allows for a half-open door
Daniel Lynds@mahabali @katebowles @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc will defo keep people posted and see what kind of uptake we can get short term. Are you thinking of doing some kind of formal research/survey Maha? I was thinking it would be good to at least get some kind of form out there? Or do surveys kill the buzz of the place?
@daniellynds @katebowles @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc havent thought of exactly what i wanna do til i know who i am doing it with :) if that makes sense? I am ok doing open-ended q's on surveys if they include an option for people to enter contact info for follow up. But it could be a collaborative autoethnography...taking place openly right here... With people making up questions as they go. Like i just did now! #SNoOO WHAT do u think?
@mahabali @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc @daniellynds I'm more in favour of a community instance and event pop-up rooms. This (rooms) is in the dev conversation.
@mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc Something here is like tags and categories in WP. Both do the same thing, but indicate degrees of persistence. Bucket and label.
@katebowles @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc yeah i remember the convo on rooms vs instances earlier but forgot now. I understood it fleetingly while in a work meeting but obvs wasn't focused enough. Remind me again?
@mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc It's @Triplefox who has the idea, there's a link.
james@katebowles @mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc this post kicked it off i think https://mastodon.social/users/Triplefox/updates/250511
@katebowles @mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc and then the proposal itself that i made is here https://github.com/Gargron/mastodon/issues/236
Archived + moved, don't follow@Triplefox This seems like it'd be a lot nicer in practice than the existing ! groups concept
@Triplefox Namely, having some form of group moderation, instead of what is effectively a hashtag that sends a tweet to whoever subscribes to it, which is too chaotic for my tastes
@HihiDanni i actually have no idea what that concept did, i am foolish around gnusocial
@Triplefox @katebowles @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc so i love the idea of the rooms and was wondering same thing as one of the comments. Rooms would be different from hashtags or Twitter lists, I assume, in the sense of possibilities of public/private/invitation? And would show on desktop as separate columns?
@mahabali @katebowles @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc yes, it's the ability to manage the rooms - both on the user and administrative end - that makes them special. A list or hashtag is less structured and doesn't necessarily have an opt-out.
@Triplefox @mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc A lot of this to me goes back to earlier cultures of e.g. channels and newsgroups, that has partly been refreshed by workplace collaboration tools like Slack. I think we're looking for the option of opening a pop-up conversation without either having to make a whole new community OR having to close off a private space.
Staying open to others feels really important, except where privacy is critical to safety.
@katebowles @mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc yes. it's some kind of mix of low friction entry and easy discovery and moderation, carefully considering everyone's incentives.
The reason why the moderated discussion persists is because it can act quickly, and the moderator bears implict obligation to spin up the discussion in an engaging way. However, left to their own devices users will choose a single venue and stay there forever.
@Triplefox @mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc A question for me: what enables the labour of moderation or dev work? What makes it possible to have or find the time?
In so many other sectors we're seeing volunteer work dry up as paid overwork takes up all human time. Where does this time to build or care for community come from? (This is about @Gargron's guitar: opportunity cost.)
@katebowles @Gargron @mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc In my experience the community strength isn't purely a function of mod action - they can simply improve the signal to noise and nudge the direction of conversation. Much more of it is derived through game-like systems design, of changing what you encounter when and the tools at hand to deal with it.
One answer: automating the most expensive elements of community into a "medium is the message" design philosophy.
@Triplefox @katebowles @Gargron @mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie This is fascinating, the idea of building community through the design of how the community interacts. I know pretty much nothing about it, but it sounds like the best route to take, if one can figure out how.
@katebowles @Gargron @mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @lauraritchie @clhendricksbc that doesn't change the need to have active leadership, but in the same way that having zines or email made it more feasible to build community, i believe we can continue to find leveraging designs in the future, ones that exploit stigmergic qualities of community. (Heather Marsh has a whole book on this, Binding Chaos.)
At preseng we have a lot of systems that try to use voting and rating with unhumane results.
@Triplefox @katebowles @mahabali @daniellynds @actualham @clhendricksbc absolutely fascinating! So we are the outliers after all! Thank you for letting us stay :)
Fredrik Graver 🎥🥌@lauraritchie @katebowles @actualham I've been very aware of that difference as well. Writing a blog post, or commenting on someone elses blog post, are very different activities from engaging in a conversation in this space.
I also keep coming back to something else - a blog post, even when it's just a train of thought, has an element of publishing, of permanence. A conversation here is much more ephemeral, which is quite liberating.
Bryan Alexander@actualham Good points.
I'd like to see how this place can build on Twitter's strengths and at the same time offer new forms.
I'd like to see how this place can build on Twitter's strengths and at the same time offer new forms.