Let’s talk being able to talk when internet and cell phone service both go down

This is something I’ve been thinking about a lot for the last year plus, and with the EFF coming out a number of days ago and strongly encouraging other people to think about it too, I thought it would be a good time to share my findings with all of you.

So here are three decent ways to have communications that keep working when both the internet AND cellphone networks go down.

1: AMATEUR RADIO, a.k.a. HAM Radio
the most capable but with the biggest barrier to entry

  • THE GOOD: Longest range. Most flexible. Most capable.
  • THE BAD: Difficult license. Relatively expensive equipment. Technically difficult. Unencrypted.
  • THE COST: Highest of the three options here. Testing and licensing fees alone cost as much as the other options.

This isn’t going to be an option for most of you because you’re going to have to make time to study, take the qualifying exam to get a license (I’m KK7ZLU if you have one), purchase that license, then purchase a radio and antenna(s) you need and yes those are separate, and get it all set up if you want long-range communications.

On the plus side, this is filled with people who already know what they’re doing. So if you’re good at tests and have the money and time to take all the steps? Great! Please do it! The more the merrier.

2: FRS AND/OR GMRS RADIO
surprisingly capable least-effort handheld radios

  • THE GOOD: REAL easy to get started, particularly FRS. GMRS can be leveraged to extend range. Trivially easy to use.
  • THE BAD: GMRS requires a license, but there’s no test and it’s trivial to get. Unencrypted.
  • THE COST: Probably the cheapest option. You can buy three-packs of FRS radios for like $60 and they’re fine. GMRS radios are more expensive, how much depends upon how powerful a radio you buy.

Okay, so, you want a modern walkie-talkie, and not junk? Something with some range? And maybe with a base station that sits in your house or car? But you don’t want to have to study for a license examination?

Welcome to the overlapping worlds of FRS and GMRS.

FRS (‘Family Radio Service’) and GMRS (‘General Mobile Radio Service’) are two separate but very compatible radio standards. The radios – typically hand-held – have numbered channels, many of which are used by both kinds of radio. By using them together, you improve both.

Using them is very simple: pick a channel, push the button to talk, then let off the button and listen for a reply. Done.

So: how are they different?

First, GMRS radios are much more powerful – and so longer-range – than FRS radios.

Second, GMRS radios can use “repeaters,” which are automated radios that can pick up your signals and resend them over a much larger area. I can from home talk to people across much of western Washington State because of these repeaters.

Third, Because of these two features, GMRS radios require a license, whereas FRS radios do not. But there is NO test for this license. No studying, no prep, no examination. You just buy one online, and you can do it tonight if you want. Once you have bought the license, your whole family can use it. It costs $35 for 10 years. (I’m WSLT671.)

By contrast, FRS radios can be used by literally anyone, INCLUDING SMALL CHILDREN. There are several families around here who have bought sets of FRS radios for their kids. I know this because I pick them up all the time on my GMRS base station. It’s like hearing neighbour kids play over the fence or down the block.

So how does using them together improve both?

In general, GMRS licensees have more technical leeway than FRS users. FRS radios have small, simple antennas you are not allowed to modify, which limits their range. With GMRS radios, you can buy – or even make – much better antennas.

Between the better antennas and the higher power, having GMRS on one end of any conversation extends the effective range of the FRS radios you’re talking to. Using GMRS on shared channels lets you both hear and talk to FRS users from further away.

E.g., in hilly terrain, you’ll be lucky to get one and a half to two miles with FRS alone. But with GMRS on one end and FRS on the other, you can get eight miles or more even in bad conditions. Under ideal conditions, 30 miles is not impossible. Two FRS users may not be able to talk to each other at the same time at those sorts of distances, but if they can both talk to the GMRS station, the GMRS user can pass messages along.

In short: having a GMRS radio in the mix makes FRS radios better, extending their range, sometimes dramatically, which means fewer licenses, cheaper radios, and better access in the short run.

Finally:

3: TEXT OVER RADIO
LoRa digital text radios

  • THE GOOD: No license of any kind. The longest range of anything without a license. Messages are encrypted. Text-based, so more comfortable for some. Public and private texting, with restricted-access channels. Tremendous range with repeaters – CascadiaMesh extends from the southern Oregon border up through Kamloops and northern Vancouver Island.
  • THE BAD: Text only. Very new, so very much in flux. There are two common communications standards and applications to go along with them: MeshCore and Meshtastic. And they are NOT compatible – they do NOT talk to each other – which means different areas are settling on one or the other. Documentation for setup is mid and usability is “yep, sure is for nerds,” a comment which I’m told is also for nerds. What that means is that getting set up and using it may dismay some people, but will particularly dismay the nontechnical who will absolutely need handholding.
  • THE COST: Middle ground, closer to the cheaper end. If you use a companion device with an existing tablet, cell phone, or computer, think $60 for each. You may be able to make your own if you’re that kind of person, though that’s only ever really worth it for repeaters.

LoRa is a kind of digital two-way radio being used here for texts. If you want to be able to text across long distances when both the internet and cell phones are down, this is a good way to do it, as long as everyone involved has LoRa devices. (LoRa texting does NOT work with regular cell phone texting, in the same way that Discord doesn’t work with it either. It is an entirely separate thing.)

There are LoRa devices that bundle all the functionality into one piece of equipment, and also LoRa “companion” devices with LoRA transmitters inside which work with software on a computer, phone, or tablet.

An example of a dedicated device is the LilyGo T-Deck. If you remember Blackberry devices, it looks like a Blackberry device. But instead of using cell phone services or the internet, it’s just directly talking over radio. No cell service, no internet: just radio.

An example of a “companion” device is the WishMesh Tag. It’s a rectangle about the size of a debit card, but thicker. If you turn its GPS receivers off, it’ll run a solid four, maybe five days on a single charge. You connect your phone, tablet, or computer to it via bluetooth using special software (the previously-mentioned MeshCore or Meshtastic) and run the accompanying app to send and receive encrypted text messages with individuals or groups.

Again: even though it can work on a cell phone, NONE OF THIS REQUIRES INTERNET OR CELL SERVICE. The “phone” isn’t being used as a cellphone here, it’s being used as a small computer that has bluetooth.

In much of the US, the most commonly used software is Meshtastic. Here in Cascadia, MeshCore (download at https://meshcore.io ) is the standard, and it is a very large area network. It seems to work better than Meshtastic does in our mountainous geography, which is why everyone switched.

Both are open source, although closed-source/commercial versions also exist.

Unfortunately, as above, the two packages don’t cross-communicate! So you want to find out what’s most common in your area and use that one, whatever it happens to be.

What do I recommend? Glad you asked.

Being me, I’ve got all three options listed here up and running. I’m just like that; if I can have a contingency plan, I will have a contingency plan; my noise in fiction about how “Sombra always has a plan” is straight-up me.

But that’s not the answer you’re looking for. The answer really depends upon what people are already using around you, because it’s easier to join an existing network than make a new one. But if you’re somewhere all three are active, or somewhere none of them are active, my answer is conditional:

  • If you’re working with people who have no technical background AND you don’t care about encryption, then option two, GMRS/FRS radios.
  • If you’re dealing with people who like new digital toys OR you care about encryption, then option three, LoRa radio text. You can even set up your own repeaters just about as easily as you can set up a companion device. Seeed makes a repeater that comes with an onboard solar panel and is as close to set-up-and-forget as you’re going to get. As things like this go, they’re not very expensive, and the battery life is generally kind of insane. They sip power, not guzzle it.

So basically, now’s a real good time to reach out to the kind of people you’d want to be able to reach regardless. Get a conversation going amongst the willing and interested, settle amongst yourselves on at least one of these, then set up and actually use it until you know it works and you’re comfortable with how it works.

After all – you never know what kind of emergency might happen, or when. And the time to be ready is beforehand, not during… when you won’t have the time to get comfortable with anything.

#AmateurRadio #politics #radio #tech
MeshCore - Official Site

Off-Grid, Encrypted, Mesh Communications

MeshCore - Official Site
@solarbird Good analysis, thanks!
@ai6yr @solarbird I am not sure why CB (citizen band) has been forgotten. 27 mhz band gives excellent NVIS capabilities with cheap and license free radios. Is there a reason for them being excluded here in general?
@alper @solarbird Probably not bad to have in your collection, but I find that most of the time CB is mostly just useful within a neighborhood -- about the same as FRS/GMRS. And not as convenient/portable with a handheld.
@alper @solarbird Most of the overlanding/4wd groups here who were on CB are switching to GMRS, because of fidelity and much greater range, and also because there are areas with repeater reach. One of the most common complaints I heard from the CB folks is that issue -- range, especially with a compromised antenna on a vehicle.

@ai6yr @alper @solarbird Yeah, it's a mix of things. Range is one, what's common around me is another, cheapness of easily available equipment is a third, the benefits of being on handheld is a fourth.

And even FRS sounds pretty dang nice by comparison to old CB.

That said, if CB is what's being used where you are, _absolutely use it_. CB repeaters exist too, and that should help with the range issue, _if_ people are setting them up.

I also left out the old, ummmm... what was it... it's still there, five channels of it... the old walkie-talkie standard at... 49 Mhz! Those things. I even have a pair of 'em, but while you can get vintage units for very low cost on eBay, the range limits are brutal and kill it as an option.

@moira @ai6yr @alper @solarbird How do you all feel about MURS as an option instead of FRS or GMRS? Requires no license, and permitted for use by non-family groups.
@davidaugust @moira @alper @solarbird Folks around here have used MURS... haven't tried it myself, also not sure on handheld availability. Probably good as it's not busy.

@ai6yr @moira @alper @solarbird that's part of my thinking, if you've a group of folks who want to stay in contact, the less popular-ness of MURS is an advantage (as long as you all get them).

For LoRa, debating if getting a SenseCAP Card Tracker T1000-E makes sense as a way to dip my toe in without having to spend a lot and see if my area has a mesh that might work in a weather event or other outage.

I'd love to have a not-super-expensive way to stay in touch with folks a few states away.

@davidaugust @moira @alper @solarbird A few states away is definitely HF amateur radio. It's not necessarily expensive, but it requires skill and a license. But it is handy in disasters. Or just for fun. There's a bunch of people here on the Fediverse I can reach via HF if I wanted, lol.

@ai6yr @moira @alper @solarbird Yeah, I gather ham is the way, and it can get pricey but doesn't have to.

Been considering something like Garmin inReach Mini 2, uses satellites. https://amzn.to/4dWKDV8 (aff)

Downside: monthly fee whether or not there's a disaster. Would prefer to invest once and not _need_ to spend more to be able to use it if/when outages happen.

Upside: can text normal cells, so allows communication with others outside outage area without them needing to invest/learn.

Garmin inReach Mini 2, Lightweight and Compact Satellite Communicator, Hiking Handheld, Black : Amazon.de: Sports & Outdoors

Garmin inReach Mini 2, Lightweight and Compact Satellite Communicator, Hiking Handheld, Black : Amazon.de: Sports & Outdoors

@davidaugust @moira @alper @solarbird Your issue with the Garmin inReach Mini 2 is it could very well get swamped in a real disaster, and (depending on how large of a disaster) its infrastructure could be hit as well. Small scale disaster, fine... very large scale disaster... not fine.

@ai6yr @moira @alper @solarbird you're not wrong, it has dependencies which are definitionally out of our control. You’re right.

Don't know if enough systems use the inReach's communications pathways to flood the system, but could be.

What takes down all satellites, like a nuclear war, probably messes up ham radio too for a few states away comms too, I think.

What keeps inReach on my mind is it works to talk to folks who don't have any special gear if they're outside impacted zone.

@davidaugust @ai6yr @moira @alper @solarbird That satellite texting is very narrowband short packet communication. Much like SMS, it will likely be the last thing working. Now it could have an infrastructure outage, but there probably aren't enough of them to overload the system.

I did a project with Iridium Short Burst Data a few years ago. That is similar. Satellite generally wants you to be outdoors. You could put the satcom outside and keep the phone inside.

@ai6yr @davidaugust @alper @solarbird People in Oregon and BC routinely exchange LoRa text messages, so if you have a reasonable repeater network set up, it can also be LoRa text.

@davidaugust @moira @ai6yr @alper MURS is limited to two watts (like FRS on the higher-power channels), has fewer channels, and unlike FRS, has no opportunity to team up with friendly GMRS operators to relay messages and extend effective range.

That said, if all people you want to talk to are using MURS around you, and you can reach each other, and the hard range limit is acceptable, then… sure, why not. Go ahead.

It does let you make your own antennas so that’ll help. But it’s not what I’d pick for this kind of purpose.

@solarbird Wondering if my friend @w6en might have any comments, I recall he did a MURS experiment with a group in the wilderness once.

@ai6yr @solarbird
Not sure if I ever replied to this.

I take a MURS kit on hikes where I'm likely to be more than an hour or so out of cell coverage. I prefer it on principle to GMRS/FRS because of the extra power, better propagation in hilly/forest terrain and you can put 2M ham antennas on them (including car mag mounts).

I've never done a "scientific" comparison though and you do need a "critical mass" of people in the group willing to do radio checks at the start of each hike and once in a while thereafter to make sure the volume/channel haven't been bumped.

Getting them in-hand and turned on before they are needed has always been a bigger challenge than the nitty gritty of propagation/reception limits. Folks' attention tends to be, understandably, elsewhere until a problem comes up...and that's where a few timely clarifications or warnings ends up saving hours of waiting or undoing wrong turns.

@ai6yr @alper @solarbird Admittedly, our GMRS net is uniquely positioned due to 2 repeaters, and full support from the County, but we get weekly check-ins from folks 90 miles away across varied terrain. I'd encourage folks to think outside of catastrophe. A member of our net recently ran out of gas and had no cell phone. My son was able to get to him in under 30min with 5 gallons. While it definitely lacks the range of Amateur, GMRS can build community, too :)
@falcon14 @alper @solarbird THIS IS GREAT! (the helping the guy out with no gas and no cell phone)
@falcon14 @ai6yr @alper @solarbird Here in northern Vermont our local HAMs and others are working to build a resilient net using HAM, GMRS, mesh and some other options. Power outages, out of fuel, and pockets with no cell connectivity are some of the reasons we have for building it. Having ways for non-HAMs to connect are part of the design, so that anyone with a walkie-talkie or certain software on their cell-phone can still get aid if needed.
@silver_buttercat @falcon14 @alper @solarbird There's a handout about a plan for a FRS linked ham network for emergencies which makes it very simple (it was designed with hurricanes in mind). I have to find it. The main problem, however, is that plans and radios that are not exercised on a regular basis won't get used during a disaster. I am familiar with a city's emergency services department which had gotten satellite phones for disasters, and when the disaster happened, none of them had working batteries. (this also happened, which I saw firsthand, during Hurricane Maria... hospitals had satphones, but they were not charged, OR, people were not trained to use them and were trying to use them inside buildings.... and then the satphone network got saturated... anyway...)
@ai6yr @falcon14 @alper @solarbird Being largely rural, most of our networking is neighbors and friends who use mesh to chat on, with walkie-talkies for hunting and similar pursuits. So we HAM operators and our neighbors are looking into ways to link the multiple options together. We're gradually growing a mesh network to make up for gaps in cell reception, for example. Most of our current networking is community built, and used enough for general chatting and the like to help prevent the situation you mentioned. Our local fire crews aren't connected to our general network yet, but some of our VFD people are showing serious interest.
@ai6yr @silver_buttercat @alper @solarbird Ben's 100% correct. Redundant comms only work if everyone knows how to use them. (I can actually Rx/Tx from my HT while sitting at my desk, lol.) We have retired and current public service on our roster & encourage consistent practice by all net members including using the phonetic alphabet. Gotta practice! Oh and I had a sat phone once in the mountains...Was not at all reliable, even in a clearing :(
@alper @ai6yr @solarbird I like that FM is now legal for CB in the US. Not sure about Canada. #CBRadio
@lopta @ai6yr @solarbird I cannot make a simplex qso over a hill where I live even with perfect antennas with 5w outputs. Sometimes turning a corner blocks everything in a distance of a half mile. Yet I remember the times when commercial trucks used to communicate with CB in my neighbourhood like nothing matters. Who knows perhaps what killed CB was not the culture afterall. =)

@alper @lopta @solarbird I think a lot of truckers used to (still?) run WAY MORE THAN 5W, based on how many channels they splatter over. I have four or five CB amps (with no filters, lol) which take 5W to 50W+ (for parts).

Anyway, I have heard more F bombs on CB and tirades against immigrants and people of color than I would ever want to hear in my life, so not exactly a friendly place....

@ai6yr @alper @solarbird I'm glad CB wasn't like that where I grew up.
@lopta @alper @solarbird I mean, my sample size is only road trips on Channel 19. Invaluable in weather conditions and traffic jams, but if not those situations, not great.
@ai6yr @alper @lopta @solarbird i was just reading somewhere about how the right has pretty much taken over the airwaves.
@alper @ai6yr @solarbird My sister and I once talked to someone in Aberdeen from Wiltshire on a 2W FM handheld. These are not typical results. ;-)
@alper @ai6yr @solarbird they aren’t terrible but FRS / GMRS is a better option IMO. Smaller antennas, less dingbats with amps and squawk boxes.
@ai6yr @solarbird Thanks! I'm hoping it'll help people get started.
@solarbird Nice overview. I think on FRS channels 8 through 14 are limited to 500mW even on radios that support higher power (mine are 2W) on other channels.

@lopta That is correct. FRS channels 8-14 are 500mW only, and some GMRS radios can’t bring their output that far down and so won’t transmit on those channels at all.

But that’s a degree of granularity that I decided exceeded the scope for this overview.

@solarbird It takes a lot for satphones to go down.

@megatronicthronbanks @solarbird Depends on your threat model. Mine includes government shutting down communications deliberately, which would take satellite phones out.

Also, Iridium (for example) is over $1,000 for the phone, and $800 a year for an annual low use plan.

@mathew @solarbird Yeah they aint cheap, still, in 2026

@solarbird Solid breakdown of the options. Ivan only add that getting a cheap analog scanner (125-150 USD) can be a good second step, because it will give an overview of all the activity on the air from CB up to GMRS and everything in in between

Two way radios can scan channels, but they are slow, it’s easy to miss stuff that’s going on

@[email protected] @indonesia I can operate ham radio without a license. since our ministry of communication is sabotaged by projo lmao

@solarbird I was talking about meshcore on that EFF post and was recommend a 3rd, and after digging into it, more robust option called Reticulum. Its a zero trust, always encryped networking framework that allows any traffic to pass, and can bind Lora with WiFi/Ethernet/etc. On Lora it's still going to be bandwidth limited, but the key is that its a network protocol more than an app like meshcore, and as such let's any app be built on top of it.

https://reticulum.network/

It has a similar "fixed repeater nodes" concept as meshcore, although having everything running "all in one" on a single solar node is still a work in progress, but one that does look to be live:

https://github.com/jrl290/RTNode-HeltecV4

Reticulum Network

@liquidlamp That’s very nice but the setup makes getting MeshCore going look like opening an iPhone, and MeshCore will be extremely difficult for most people by itself.

I look forward to them being able to advance the technology to the point of accessible-with-help-from-technical-friends.

@solarbird setting up the nodes has a meshcore like flasher, but yeah its early days as it so far only supports the heltecv3/v4:

https://jrl290.github.io/RTNode-HeltecV4/

If a tech pal can do the above, all you need as an end user is a "meshcore-ish" client like MeshchatX:

https://meshchatx.com/

You dont even need the LoRa node for meshchatx to work, because people have connected their LoRa node to the internet using the built in networking bridge in Reticulum. As long as meshcatX or another Reticulum client has internet access, you can talk to LoRa only Reticulum clients too.

Im just getting into LoRa, and will likely deploy both reticulum and meshcore nodes to test, but I think the former has more versatility and robustness built in.

RTNode Firmware Flasher

@liquidlamp
this sounded good until I got to reading the part about it needing the internet; confused me a moment as I'd begun reading the conversation of comments as alternatives for maintaining communications when the internet is down. Still, this sounds interesting, thank you for something for me to think about while we still do have internet.

@MossyQuartz sorry, I may have explained that poorly. You dont need the internet for it to work. It can work strictly over LoRa if that how you would like to set it up. It just also let's you "bridge" types of physical networks together.

So if you have a Reticulum repeater that can speak LoRa and WiFi/Ethernet at the same time, you can use this to connect LoRa and the Internet together. Then, anyone who has a LoRa only client can still talk to anyone on LoRa, but also to anyone with an internet only client. If the internet fails, then the LoRA "no internet" part still completely works.

The real powerful part of this is that as long as any Reticulum repeater has internet, then they all do. There can be 100 LoRa only Reticulum repeaters in a line that you're at the end of, but if the 101st repeater has LoRa and internet, then so do you. Your traffic will be very slow, but you will be able to get information in and out to the wider world.

If the internet is gone gone, then that feature is moot, but in a lot of disaster scenarios where the internet is locked down in a city/state/country, the shared networks would let everyone in that area be connected still in a way that can't be controlled.

@solarbird
Thanks for the info
I keep thinking yeah I got to get the meshy thing going one of these days
I would also add
>Keep information you might need at some point. you won't be able to look stuff up
@solarbird
So is mesh core the way to go or are the other flavors good too?

@solarbird

The US entry level license is very easy to get. Pass, & you have access to every amateur band >=50 MHz & slices of 4 of the bands below there. Pass another 35-question multiple-choice test that's not much harder than the entry level & you get access to all amateur bands.

The Canadian entry level test is harder & is 100 questions, again multiple-choice. Get 80 or better on the exam & you get access to all parts of every amateur band.

Q&A pools are public domain for both.

I once looked at HAM radio, and quickly realized it was completely infeasible for someone who lives in an apartment/condo building, as do most people in my city. So that's a crucial piece of information for all these technologies that is usually left out.

@solarbird

@EverydayMoggie @solarbird If you have rooftop access, apartments are some of the best places to be for ham radio. :)

Rooftop access is not a thing around here, in most buildings. The ones that do have rooftop access usually have stuff like fitness or lounges up there.

@JustinDerrick @solarbird

@EverydayMoggie @solarbird HAM operators can live in apartment buildings, but probably not enjoy all the options of the hobby. If you can recharge your battery in your apartment and walk out the door with your radio then you can enjoy being part of the amateur community. I have a little two-meter hand-held radio now and it fits in my purse or can clip it onto a belt. I can call simplex line-of-sight or hit a local repeater. I need to go back to studying and learn enough to upgrade to the fancy licenses to play with radios like my husband uses, but even my little portable is enough to call to another HAM who then might use any number of other wavelengths to call for help.
@solarbird I'm pretty sure this is AI... But, I'm disappointed in GMRS range. My 5w handhelds only go ~1 mile in my neighborhood because of all the trees and houses. There's no repeater in my neighborhood. Handheld HAM radios can be had pretty cheaply (e.g. Baofeng), but if you don't have a license, you can only transmit in emergencies. I have a cheap handheld that can do GMRS and HAM bands, and I can listen to the local HAM group meetings talking about their medical conditions and potlucks ~20 miles away, lol. Meshtastic and Meshcore can go very far if there are high repeater nodes around you. I have a direct connection to nodes on top of tall buildings ~20 miles away. Messages reliably traversing the mesh through many hops is an issue though.

@1337 Excuse the fuck out of me? Fuck you. I’m one of the people whose work LLMs stole, one of the people whose work has been looted to make them. I have professional writing going back to the nineteen fucking eighties, when I was a literal kid writing for computer magazines like I was a 30 year old. I have entries on this blog back to not just Livejournal, but ported over from mailing lists I ran in the 1990s.

So no, I’m not a goddamn fucking LLM “AI.” I’m one of the people they stole from and they parrot. Fuck you.

@solarbird Lol, sorry. The em-dashes, tone, and structure is very similar to what AI typically generates.