hannah aubryRE: https://social.coop/@scottjenson/116352522288234148
The views expressed by Scott in this thread do not reflect the opinions of the Mastodon core team or organisation. We're addressing this internally. I'm sorry everyone
Lutin Discret@haubles can you sum it up? The thread is now so long i don't know what you are talking about
A cool crab wearing shades@lutindiscret
@haubles compared fedi's general antipathy towards genAI to driving away black people, admits to trolling for blog material
@haubles compared fedi's general antipathy towards genAI to driving away black people, admits to trolling for blog material
Amoshias
Troed SångbergScott found it problematic that some people on Mastodon pour hate in people's mentions instead of using block/mute.
The ones who want to pour hate didn't like that.
tkissingScott's posts weren't about AI.
The people who want to spend their days pouring hate over AI pretend to not understand that.
@troed @lutindiscret @haubles Well then I'm glad you can read their minds and explain it to me, because I didn't see that.
@tkissing Then maybe you should spend more time reading rather than posting stupid doll takes.
Mrs.Malice ❤️🔥✨@troed awww man troed you should really just block/mute instead of pouring hate buddy
Jens Finkhäuser@mrs_malice badumm-tss 🥁
On the other threads like this make great blocklist sources.
Baron Vonskinnback
Jessie Nabein 
@troed do you support the use of AI products and services?
@jessienab Are you an AI-hater that will spew hatred in my mentions?
@troed Nope! Goodbye
Patrick H. Lauke@troed @lutindiscret @haubles i particularly enjoyed the take about the entirety of fedi being a #monoculture because of low/no engagement with a specific type of post (on which instance? who knows) compared to the bastion of big tent diversity that are threads and bluesky...
Stephen Bannasch (316 ppm)Lots of folks tried to point out why this didn’t actually make sense, I know I did, it seemed he got himself into a very reactive place emotionally and wasn’t able to understand other perspectives that were being shared.
@stepheneb tbf he became the receiver of exactly the problem he brought up. Pure hatred, voiced out. I'd even claim @Gargron participated with the "puppy killing".
I don’t think that was the initial problem he “thought” he was bringing up. But it sure seemed to become one for him.
And then seemed to be incapable of not digging a deeper and deeper hole.
That’s the part that makes me think he got lost in an emotional whirlpool which sometimes seems to make people think digging in deeper is going to somehow get them to a light at the end of a tunnel.
He indeed intended for the discussion to be around people who go spew hate at others instead of just blocking/muting what they don't like - it's not the first post along those lines.
The AI-haters on Mastodon just couldn't stand that _that_ was the example given - and so they proved Scott's point beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Scott Jenson@troed @stepheneb @lutindiscret
The majority of the hate came from people saying I wanted more AI in Mastodon, or I was upset AI wasn't better treated (or whatever) which was exactly NOT what I wanted. I was using AI as an example of intolerance and the discussion became all about AI. (or that "tolerance lets in the nazis")
I'll totally own that my initial post was too vague and made too broad of a point. I'm not going to pretend I was perfect. But if someone started saying you wanted to let nazi's into mastodon, wouldn't you feel compelled to say "uh, no?"
Jeremy@scottjenson @troed @stepheneb @lutindiscret
Perhaps you used a very, very bad example since genAI is a highly political issue that ppl feel very strongly about.
Perhaps you used a very, very bad example since genAI is a highly political issue that ppl feel very strongly about.
Morgan ⚧️@troed @jeromio @scottjenson since when are short skirts gaslighting people, convincing teens to commit suicide, operating CSAM vending machines, slurping up the grid so regular people go without access to clean energy, polluting all repositories of human knowledge with misinformation, running fascist propaganda campaigns, and fabricating evidence to imprison and deport people? I'll give you one, their production does exploit cheap labor overseas. But a better comparison would be fur and paint.
@troed @jeromio @scottjenson also I don't know if you've ever been raped before, but most of us I've met who have would *never* compare it to replies where people complain about something we said. That's also something that has happened to me, and turns out it's a lot easier to get over than actual physical/sexual violence!
"she was wearing a short skirt"-argument is a well known construction where blame is laid on the victim for what the perpetrator did. In this context, Scott getting attacked because of what Jeremy considered to be having used "the wrong" example.
@[email protected] @raphaelmorgan @jeromio @[email protected] so Scott is a victim now...🤣🤣🤣🤣
I am starting to think you spelt your name wrong, are you sure your name isn't spelt "Choad"?
@troed I am well aware of the argument, I know feminism 101; I disagree with its placement here. In my opinion:
1) a lot of people telling you that you made a shitty argument is a fair consequence for making an argument so poorly most people misunderstood you.
2) rape is never a fair consequence, let alone for something so harmless as wearing a skirt.
3) comparing the two is rape culture.
I can agree to disagree on #1. If you disagree on #2, please block me and don't reply.
@raphaelmorgan No, you're not well aware of the construct since this is the second time you're misrepresenting it.
I'm not at fault for your lack of literacy.
@troed all I'm saying is it does not mean "any sort of consequence for your actions." What specific context do you believe I'm missing from its definition?
@raphaelmorgan It means exactly what I wrote before. It's a literary construct that points out that someone is trying to blame the victim for having caused an action from the perpetrator.
You're the troll here. It's obvious you're trying to pick a fight because you have issues you need to vent. In a sense, you're an example of the "spewing hate in someone's mentions" discussion all this originated with.
Go be hateful somewhere else.
edit: Nope, not even spelling it out in full detail made any difference. They still didn't understand and kept on hating.
Your first post was confusing. You included a screenshot of a post by @carnage4life from Jan 5 and said: “but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!”
Why didn’t you quote post that? There was no link to Dare’s original post. I assume there was a thread because in that first post he didn’t seem to be saying anything terribly related to your post.
@stepheneb @troed @lutindiscret My post was confusing. I'm trying to own that. Why didn't I quote post it? I found it on Blusky I think and just screenshot it. Would a link have been better? Of course.
You ended your very first post with what seemed to me as a strange passive aggressive attempt at a guilt trip.
“They aren't coming with examples like this!”
OK, sometimes folks all caught up in their feelings start a thread that way … but I couldn’t see anything in the screenshot of Dare’s post that might have set you off???
And YES, starting a thread like that absolutely requires a quote post.
And you said you got the screenshot from bsky. A link to the thread might have provided more context for the highly emotional way you started the thread. Bsky threads about mastodon can get very snarky. That’s not usually the kind of considered conversation that’s useful to promote policy changes
s1m0n4@scottjenson I can ask you directly then!
@s1m0n4 I have no official role to be able to talk to you about that. What I will say is what has been frequently discussed in Fediform and Bluesky meetings as well: both platforms are losing users. This is just "common wisdom" and should be treated cautiously. It's just what people are saying.
As I’ve said in earlier replies there are many different and overlapping communities on Fediverse and the care I’m taking here to communicate clearly and very specifically to help you is an example of what sometimes happens here.
I don’t see it happening on other social networks. It’s something I value greatly whether I’m participating or not. It’s what I mean by engagement.
@stepheneb
and I hope it's clear that I value your efforts. Much appreciated.
My hypothesis is that 95% of the people on mastodon are amazing and it forms a unique and valued community. My issue is with that remaining 5%. Of course,that may just be a factor of any social network.
But there are enough stories of people being dissuaded that I would still like to explore it further.
@troed @lutindiscret
@scottjenson @stepheneb @troed @lutindiscret
I already from the get-go feel in your 5%. I feel comfortable there.
But sorry that I did not conform to your expectations.
/s
Willem Janssen@scottjenson @troed @stepheneb @lutindiscret I hope you find a UX way to address harassment on Mastodon. It would be very benificial. The AI example was a poor one, as literally everybody knows by now, and it’s a shame if that gets in the way of actual positive change, e.g. for marginalized communities, and ideally imho also for journalists and other asymmetrical or parasocial posters.
(Tl;dr: More minorities and famous people!)
(Tl;dr: More minorities and famous people!)
@Wlm @scottjenson @troed @stepheneb @lutindiscret
> I hope you find a UX way to address harassment on Mastodon
I take it you weren't there back in usenet days? Because my experience from back then makes me guess that there is no way to address/police harassment "the UX way".
There’s a nasty form of harassment where better architecture could definitely help the community do a better job limiting harassment:
Stephen Bannasch (316 ppm) (@[email protected])
@[email protected] There have been some serious architectural issues that enable harassment which also hides the harassment from others. The details are important but I can only give a flavor (will look for a post that explains it well). Goes something like this: User0 (person about to be harassed) posts. User1 posts racist reply and sets visibility to “followers only”. That actually means followers only plus User0. 1/n @[email protected] @[email protected]
@stepheneb @Wlm @scottjenson @troed @lutindiscret
This might be a problem, right. Doesn't User0 blocking User1 solve the problem?
What would help more is, if I could block users algorithmically, by e..g if there are (peer committee) curated blocking list, which I could just attach to.
Admittedly this increases the steepness of the filtering bubble, but that would be the intended effect.
Yes, User0 can block User1. Here’s some of the nasty things that can still happen.
User0 is upset and complains about harassment — but almost none of their friends and followers ever see the harassing replies. If User0 also wants to warn folks about User1 they have to screenshot and share.
1/3
User1 is a nasty piece of work and their followers are also creeps. For some reason User1’s followers also enjoy also being nasty to User0 and also reply limiting visibility to followers-only.
If I’m a follower of User0 I never see these messages. If User0 doesn’t have a relatively deep understanding of how Mastodon works they can’t even explain.
2/3
Hiding harassment from User0’s community is an important part of this pattern and makes it hard for User0 to get support.
3/3
@stepheneb @Wlm @scottjenson @troed @lutindiscret
If you think so. I don't agree. But then I am perhaps atypical. Normally I don't need community support for handling a-holes.
I also have been blocked by good people for really innocent stuff, so I assume a lot is in the eye of the beholder.
Even and especially bad behavior. I only don't want to have anything to do with those people, therefore I don't pig wrestle.
I am not here for pig wrestling. I am here for entertainment, information, the connection (as limited as it is, but, for example, there is no active Lisp programmer AFAICS in a radius of 100 km).
I’m describing a pattern of harassment that these creeps use against folks they judge as marginal and deserving of abuse just because they exist.
I also think this is important because architectural improvements might help a community of folks improve this.
You may well not be a target.
I’m not a target — and this important to me.
@stepheneb @Wlm @scottjenson @troed @lutindiscret
> User0 is upset and complains about harassment
> If User0 also wants to eaten folks about User1 they have to screenshot and share.
Frankly, I think it's this kind of community policing that only escalated the problem (and was part of the toxic environment in usenet and mailinglists in the 90s).
I block them and mute them. If the person in question is especially obnoxious I reply something pointed (and impolite), tell them they will be blocked and as soon as they have read it, I block them. I like to drive the knife in a bit in those cases. And typically they absolutely hate it.
But YMMV.
Experience, though, shows, trying to fight them in the court of public opinion, even if you are right (and that's typically a much less clear-cut black&white question in average than you'd assume), doesn't cut it. You cannot wrestle a pig without getting full of mud.
Gavin@troed @lutindiscret @haubles That’s not actually what happened. Scott was remiss that Mastodon wasn’t full of fascists and AI boosters. The so-called big tent, a dog-whistle for the far right. Mastodon put him right on that.
His big mistake was comparing the racism experienced by black people with that of insufferable AI boosters and fascists. His argument imploded from there really.
@troed @lutindiscret @haubles You’re one of those AI boosters, aren’t you. What would you know about the truth. 🤣
What do you hope to accomplish from posting easily disproven lies in this thread?
@troed @lutindiscret @haubles Dude, you realise Scott spent most of yesterday trying to dig himself out of the hole he created.
It apparently resulted in someone from Mastodon apologising for it. Go bug someone else.
It is you who replied to me with a post filled with lies. Again, what are you trying to accomplish?