Mastodawn

systemd lost the plot a long time ago. they stopped following the Unix philosophy and now they're busy adding nonsense like age verification. Just like Firefox, systemd doesn't understand its core user base. There are plenty of distros without systemd

@nixCraft It really has been taking a very wrong direction for quite some time. Lots of bloat and unnecessary components, poor standards, etc etc.

Apparently OpenRC is a really good alternative, but it comes at the catch that a lot of stuff is built to call systemd a dependency and will claim it can't work without it. *Sigh* Hopefully all this will result in a general switch away from that hot mess and proper support from everything for, well, anything else...

@nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft this is one reason I'm really happy that OpenRC-based Alpine Linux is seeing wider adoption. It's often used as a base for docker images and VPSs (I also use it on a VPS). Hopefully this leads to wider adoption of OpenRC and other unit systems

@tarix29 @nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft I run Alpine on my tablet. Its very lightweight and you can install a normal DE. Ive just installed KDE which has good touch support.

bazkie 👩🏼‍💻 bitplanes 🎵2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft blegh! this type of dependency on something that should be totally independent is a sign of structural failure, i suppose..

i've been a debian fanby for the longest time but maybe it's time to look into other distros. can anyone recommend me which are the most "mainstream"/well-maintained non-systemd distros?

@bazkie @nixCraft

blegh! this type of dependency on something that should be totally independent is a sign of structural failure, i suppose..

Exactly this.

Systemd has completely lost sight of its entire purpose. It should be simple, minimal, and just get the job done. It sure shouldn't become... this...

(And I too am a Debian person. I kind of don't really want to switch right now though.)

Snosrapkungfu (They/them)2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @bazkie @nixCraft i wonder if whatever junk theyre putting into systemd would be cut short by running the debian to ageless conversion script? i'd hope so #agelesslinux https://agelesslinux.org/

Ageless Linux — Software for Humans of Indeterminate Age

bazkie 👩🏼‍💻 bitplanes 🎵2d ago

@snosrapkungfu that's interesting! gonna give that a read later tnx

nieuemma 2d ago

@snosrapkungfu @nazokiyoubinbou @bazkie @nixCraft I don't believe that script does anything but change the OS name.

@nieuemma @snosrapkungfu @bazkie @nixCraft Most of it does seem to be just about making a point and I can't read all of it, but I do see a few lines that are supposed to actually modify the user's birth date to 1970-01-01 or blank depending on which mode one uses. (Assuming that /etc/userdb/username is correct anyway.) And for some reason it can set a script that says it does it again once a day every day. I'm not too sure it's a good idea to mess with the release name and such necessarily though. I think this one is just about making the point more than anything and should only be used by people who don't mind their system (pretty much completely literally) saying "I'm breaking a law on purpose" specifically to make a point.

nieuemma 1d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @snosrapkungfu @bazkie @nixCraft Awesome info, thank you. I read their webpage like a week ago and it didn't seem like it changed a lot.

@nieuemma @snosrapkungfu @bazkie @nixCraft From what little I can tell it doesn't change a lot. It sets the userdb birthdate and keeps changing it and it sets the ID to its name as you said. It also throws in an arbitrary script that just simply says something to the effect of "error, unable to determine age" or whatever in a folder of its own that nothing would ever call. 😆

Basically every single part of it is more just for show than anything else. The one and only thing it does seriously I'm pretty sure people can manually do if this script can do it — without the potential breakage of the system identifying itself differently.

They also plan to do a "flatpak store for children" with stuff like an app that prints the text "peepee" really big. Like I said, it's all for show...

John Smith 2d ago

@snosrapkungfu @nazokiyoubinbou @bazkie @nixCraft

https://agelesslinux.org/distros.html

It also comes with a list of options

Ageless Linux — Distro Compliance Tracker

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

This is almost entirely the problem at my end. I also have spent many years on various distros from Mandriva, to Magiea, to Ubuntu, to Garuda.

To the best of my knowledge all of those that still exist are systemd houses.

If I want to move away from systemd, it seems I have to go with off-band distros, but I still want my KDE desktop!

@bazkie @nixCraft

@bytebro @bazkie @nixCraft Turns out there are a few that are specifically designed to move away. I'm probably going to give Devuan a shot as soon as I can as it sounds like it's very close to pure Debian in every other way. They have a page listing several distros that are not based on systemd (or at least have an easy option to switch): https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom

Distrowatch themselves popped up to suggest it and a couple of others.

Welcome to devuan.org | Devuan GNU+Linux Free Operating System

Free GNU+Linux base OS. Devuan is a fork of Debian without systemd. Devuan provides a safe upgrade path from Debian, to ensure the right to Init Freedom and avoid entanglement.

Devuan GNU+Linux

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

Very interesting, thank you. I've bookmarked that to look at perhaps tomorrow afternoon. I'll certainly try it out in a VM, if that is doable.

@bazkie @nixCraft

@bytebro @bazkie @nixCraft Fingers crossed for both of us. 🤞

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

Currently struggling to find an actual installable ISO. If it's simply a framework that needs a distro around it, then that's outside of my skill-level, I suspect.

@bazkie @nixCraft

@bytebro @bazkie @nixCraft In installation under images: https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/excalibur/install-devuan#images

You probably want desktop or netinstall.

Welcome to devuan.org | Devuan GNU+Linux Free Operating System

Free GNU+Linux base OS. Devuan is a fork of Debian without systemd. Devuan provides a safe upgrade path from Debian, to ensure the right to Init Freedom and avoid entanglement.

Devuan GNU+Linux

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

Got it, thanks!

@bazkie @nixCraft

John Smith 2d ago

@bytebro @nazokiyoubinbou @bazkie @nixCraft

https://agelesslinux.org/distros.html

Heres some options. I'm personally looking into Artix. Multiple DEs and KDE is one of them.

Ageless Linux — Distro Compliance Tracker

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱1d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

Installed it in a Gnome-Boxes VM and not impressed with the WE. It doesn't automagically recognise my screen size on boot, unlike Ubuntu, Mint, Cachy, Tuxedo, Garuda, etc, do. And the best resolutions available in the Settings screen are not even close to what is needed.

I think this one goes down as a 'work-in-progress' for now.

@bazkie @nixCraft

@bytebro @bazkie @nixCraft That's very strange. It's mostly plain Debian in regards to things like what drivers/etc are in the stock kernel as far as I know. If plain Debian works then it should.

Works fine for me, but I have an AMD GPU which is a whole lot of Just Works™ in Linux compared to others these days. (Kind of ironic that once it was nVidia for that and now they are the ones that suck at it.)

Main thing I ran into was stuff like pipewire-pulse wouldn't work with it stock. It would need something such as that MX Linux method.

Speaking of, maybe you should look into MX Linux?

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱1d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

Downloading MX as we speak. I'll play tomorrow, perhaps.

@bazkie @nixCraft

@bytebro @bazkie @nixCraft I'm messing around with it right now. As a warning, the KDE version uses systemd if I read correctly. You'd want to install the XFCE version. But you can then just install kde (and optionally install and switch to sddm. Actually, that may not be optional. Lightdm and KDE aren't getting along well for me anymore.)

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱17h ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

Devuan still refuses to, or is unable to, sort out a wide-screen on boot - according to my notes this should be about 3440x1440, and it doesn't seem to be able to handle that. Hey-ho, we'll look for other alternatives.

@bazkie @nixCraft

@bytebro @bazkie @nixCraft Sounds like it's a matter of loading the appropriate driver for whatever your hardware uses? It's basically just Debian in regards to that. Framebuffer/etc stuff should work exactly the same. Exactly the same...

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱16h ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

I get that, but many other distros seem to be able to work that out at the time of install. And no 'obvious' route post-install to make it work as it should. Obvs, currently, not a fan!

@bazkie @nixCraft

@bytebro @bazkie @nixCraft Not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying it's very very weird because it's literally just "Debian without systemd." So it should literally act just like Debian in regards to things like that. It's very strange.

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱16h ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

I tell you what - this has all been within Gnome-Boxes. Next time I'm bored and sober, I'll have ago at installing it on VirtualBox, which I believe I still have on here...!

@bazkie @nixCraft

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱14h ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

Hah! Well that was interesting - I fired up VirtualBox for the first time in a long time, then told it to create a Devuan VM, with essentially the same config that the Gnome-Boxes one had. It crashed whilst booting the ISO, so didn't even get to a Live login! Colour me as 'less than comfortable' with it, right now.

@bazkie @nixCraft

@bytebro @bazkie @nixCraft There is something weird going on.

Uh...

Just to double check, your computer is stable, right? 😆

Honestly, I have no idea. You have really bad luck or something. Sorry.

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱14h ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

Stable? Sure. It's a 2.5yr old Tuxedo laptop with 32GbRAM and 1Tb of SDD.

For each VM, I've given 16Gb of virtual RAM and 40GB of virtual HDD. The Gnome-Boxes one works, but has no clue about my graphics capabilities, and the VirtualBox one simply fails even to boot the ISO.

Most odd.

@bazkie @nixCraft

@bytebro It really is super weird. Like I think their installer is based on an older version of the Debian installer, but it's basically just the Debian installer even.

Oh well. Give MX Linux a look?

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱14h ago

@nazokiyoubinbou That one is definitely my next to look at. And thanks for the suggestions along the way, of course!

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱14h ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

BTW, to save me a lot of searching, do we know what distro (if any) MX might be derived from? Some of the VM managers like to try and guess stuff based on the base distro...

@bytebro They pretty much say it all on their website. It's based on Debian Stable, but integrates some things from antiX Linux. It very much resembles pure Debian, but the change to sysvinit does mean some stuff is funky and it doesn't look like they've changed everything. (I'm going to have to manually rig up an old fashioned init-style service for cdemu for example I guess.)

BTW on your graphics issues, were you just talking about the framebuffer? Because a VM probably couldn't detect your monitor settings at the UEFI/init stuff. You'll probably have to manually specify a resolution if you want the framebuffer to not just default to whatever.

Normally the firmware gets it from the videocard which in turn gets the monitor itself, but a VM doesn't have direct access.

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱14h ago

@nazokiyoubinbou

OK, as far as the graphics thing goes, I'm not sure about that - what I saw was in the System Settings, then Display, I could opt to change the screen resolution, but not a single available option actually came close to my screen. As I think I said, several other distros have just gone - 'oo that's a big screen, here you go!' or similar either at start-up or after log-in 🙂

Also as I'm (almost!) about to try MX, I'll remember the Debian roots when Gnome-Boxes asks me, thanks.

Fahri Reza 🍉2d ago

@bytebro @nazokiyoubinbou @bazkie @nixCraft

captured

DistroWatch 2d ago

@bazkie @nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft Devuan is Debian with an alternative init.

Antix provides multiple init implementations.

FreeBSD is not hard if you are used to Debian.

@distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft I didn't know about this Devuan. That's kind of interesting. Perhaps that might help keep some of the compatibility I currently enjoy. I hope. I may have to give it a good look.

Thanks!

EDIT: Devuan has a page listing a number of distros with alternative inits it seems: https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom

Welcome to devuan.org | Devuan GNU+Linux Free Operating System

Free GNU+Linux base OS. Devuan is a fork of Debian without systemd. Devuan provides a safe upgrade path from Debian, to ensure the right to Init Freedom and avoid entanglement.

Devuan GNU+Linux

bazkie 👩🏼‍💻 bitplanes 🎵2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @nixCraft same!

@distrowatch @bazkie @nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft I've had an excellent experience with MX, which recently reinstated their classic dual-init support: https://mxlinux.org/blog/mx-25-dual-init-setup/

Now it's dual-init by default. My favorite Debian-based distro.

@jandi @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft I'm not sure I understand the benefit of dual init. Doesn't that mean you get the bloat and downsides of systemd while also using sysvinit for some reason? You're still going to have all the stuff that people want to avoid with systemd while it's installed and doing its thing, just with added complexity.

@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft The distro supports both. As you can see in the linked post you can easily remove either, but you can also pick and choose at every boot, for any purpose (troubleshooting, dev, debug, etc). MX is a decidedly pro-user distro.

In the same vein, you can use flatpaks, snaps, appimages, debs, containers, whatever, if you so choose. It's quite flexible but not (IMO) overwhelming.

Still, of course, not everything for everyone, it might not be for you.

DistroWatch 2d ago

@jandi @nazokiyoubinbou @bazkie @nixCraft This is all true. I'd like to append that Snap packages rely on systemd, so if you're booting into SysV init then Snap packages are not available.

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft IMO people should avoid relying on snap anyway...

@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft

Snap packages make sense for IoT devices which can cause catastrophes if unpatched, due to their auto updating.

Drove me off Ubuntu as a desktop

@distrowatch @nazokiyoubinbou @bazkie @nixCraft Ah, good point, thanks!

DistroWatch 2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft That's one way to look at it. Alternatively you could say you get the leanness of SysV init while also having the library features and application support of systemd.

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft I don't see how though. That's why I was asking of course. Just if both are installed and both are running then you get the leanness of sysv and the bloat of systemd... Which means just that much more instead of less....

In other words it's not just "best of both worlds" but literally straight up "both worlds," meaning best, worst, and a combination of the two all in one.

I just don't see how you can have 1+2 and not get 3 instead of 1.

DistroWatch 2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft Well, no. If you're running the SysV init version then systemd isn't running. But the systemd libraries are on the disk in case they are needed as dependencies. I thnk what you're missing is that both init implementations don't run at the same time so there isn't any bloat in memory or on the CPU.

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft So the combo system just has the libraries, not actually running both? They don't really say anything to that effect specifically, so that's definitely something one would have to be very clear about.

All it says on there is "dual-init" without any real specifics.

@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft I guess the usage comes from dual-booting, where you can boot either of two (or more) OSs alternatively but not simultaneously.

@jandi @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft Definitely feels like that has a pretty limited range of use cases. Like one person specifically going back and forth with specific tools maybe. But for the most part it really feels like people should pick one.

@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft Whatever, I'm out.

Emma Liv 2d ago

@jandi You can only explain something to somebody so many times; you can't understand it for them. Geez that was painful to read.

DistroWatch 2d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft Well, you can't run more than one init at a time, so it's implied. Dual init just means you get to pick which one you want at boot time.

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft Ok. I'll admit I'm still confused about the full purpose of this or why it's better than just picking one and working with that.

I think for now I'll just be going with Devuan.

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft Ok, coming back to this, I tried Devuan and immediately saw issues like simply not being able to use pipewire-pulse at all. I had assumed they would have built workarounds for stuff like that, but it kind of looks like they haven't.

So now I'm looking at MX Linux again and still trying to wrap my head fully around its setup. It seems their KDE iso is systemd only, but also their XFCE4 option includes one for newer systems with a newer kernel, so I went ahead and installed that second XFCE4 option. It at no point asked me which init to use, but it seems to have systemd installed but not running or working.

Is it safe to assume this one will be the best compatibility balance without age-gate crap or will systemd's direction still infect it?

DistroWatch 1d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft MX Linux gives you the choice of which init to run at boot time. You select which one you want from the boot menu.

As for your second question: it's too soon to tell. You would have better luck asking the MX Linux developers what their plans are.