nixCraft 🐧1d ago
systemd lost the plot a long time ago. they stopped following the Unix philosophy and now they're busy adding nonsense like age verification. Just like Firefox, systemd doesn't understand its core user base. There are plenty of distros without systemd
Show threadNazo1d ago

@nixCraft It really has been taking a very wrong direction for quite some time. Lots of bloat and unnecessary components, poor standards, etc etc.

Apparently OpenRC is a really good alternative, but it comes at the catch that a lot of stuff is built to call systemd a dependency and will claim it can't work without it. *Sigh* Hopefully all this will result in a general switch away from that hot mess and proper support from everything for, well, anything else...

Show threadbazkie 👩🏼‍💻 bitplanes 🎵1d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft blegh! this type of dependency on something that should be totally independent is a sign of structural failure, i suppose..

i've been a debian fanby for the longest time but maybe it's time to look into other distros. can anyone recommend me which are the most "mainstream"/well-maintained non-systemd distros?

Show threadDistroWatch1d ago

@bazkie @nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft Devuan is Debian with an alternative init.

Antix provides multiple init implementations.

FreeBSD is not hard if you are used to Debian.

Show threadjandi1d ago

@distrowatch @bazkie @nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft I've had an excellent experience with MX, which recently reinstated their classic dual-init support: https://mxlinux.org/blog/mx-25-dual-init-setup/

Now it's dual-init by default. My favorite Debian-based distro.

Show threadNazo1d ago
@jandi @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft I'm not sure I understand the benefit of dual init. Doesn't that mean you get the bloat and downsides of systemd while also using sysvinit for some reason? You're still going to have all the stuff that people want to avoid with systemd while it's installed and doing its thing, just with added complexity.
Show threadDistroWatch1d ago
@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft That's one way to look at it. Alternatively you could say you get the leanness of SysV init while also having the library features and application support of systemd.
Show threadNazo1d ago

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft I don't see how though. That's why I was asking of course. Just if both are installed and both are running then you get the leanness of sysv and the bloat of systemd... Which means just that much more instead of less....

In other words it's not just "best of both worlds" but literally straight up "both worlds," meaning best, worst, and a combination of the two all in one.

I just don't see how you can have 1+2 and not get 3 instead of 1.

Show threadDistroWatch
@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft Well, no. If you're running the SysV init version then systemd isn't running. But the systemd libraries are on the disk in case they are needed as dependencies. I thnk what you're missing is that both init implementations don't run at the same time so there isn't any bloat in memory or on the CPU.
Mar 20 at 11:40pmWeb
Show threadNazo1d ago

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft So the combo system just has the libraries, not actually running both? They don't really say anything to that effect specifically, so that's definitely something one would have to be very clear about.

All it says on there is "dual-init" without any real specifics.

Show threadjandi1d ago
@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft I guess the usage comes from dual-booting, where you can boot either of two (or more) OSs alternatively but not simultaneously.
Show threadNazo1d ago
@jandi @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft Definitely feels like that has a pretty limited range of use cases. Like one person specifically going back and forth with specific tools maybe. But for the most part it really feels like people should pick one.
Show threadjandi1d ago
@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft Whatever, I'm out.
Show threadEmma Liv1d ago
@jandi You can only explain something to somebody so many times; you can't understand it for them. Geez that was painful to read.
Show threadDistroWatch1d ago
@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft Well, you can't run more than one init at a time, so it's implied. Dual init just means you get to pick which one you want at boot time.
Show threadNazo1d ago

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft Ok. I'll admit I'm still confused about the full purpose of this or why it's better than just picking one and working with that.

I think for now I'll just be going with Devuan.

Show threadNazo6h ago

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft Ok, coming back to this, I tried Devuan and immediately saw issues like simply not being able to use pipewire-pulse at all. I had assumed they would have built workarounds for stuff like that, but it kind of looks like they haven't.

So now I'm looking at MX Linux again and still trying to wrap my head fully around its setup. It seems their KDE iso is systemd only, but also their XFCE4 option includes one for newer systems with a newer kernel, so I went ahead and installed that second XFCE4 option. It at no point asked me which init to use, but it seems to have systemd installed but not running or working.

Is it safe to assume this one will be the best compatibility balance without age-gate crap or will systemd's direction still infect it?

Show threadDistroWatch4h ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft MX Linux gives you the choice of which init to run at boot time. You select which one you want from the boot menu.

As for your second question: it's too soon to tell. You would have better luck asking the MX Linux developers what their plans are.

Show threadNazo4h ago

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft It's definitely not showing any boot time choice on that.

Actually, I finally found it. To switch you have to go into their tweak tool. Under miscellaneous there is an option to change the init. As expected it's defaulting to "sysVinit" with the XFCE installation at least. I presume the KDE installer doesn't offer this. However, I was able to install the KDE DE in the XFCE version and it's working without me switching to systemd, so it seems kind of a strange choice.

I guess my question in regards to systemd is if stuff like that is just going to take over in such a way that simply having the libraries installed is enough for it to start collecting info. (Which is less about MX specifically and more about systemd specifically.)