nixCraft 🐧1d ago
systemd lost the plot a long time ago. they stopped following the Unix philosophy and now they're busy adding nonsense like age verification. Just like Firefox, systemd doesn't understand its core user base. There are plenty of distros without systemd
Show threadNazo1d ago

@nixCraft It really has been taking a very wrong direction for quite some time. Lots of bloat and unnecessary components, poor standards, etc etc.

Apparently OpenRC is a really good alternative, but it comes at the catch that a lot of stuff is built to call systemd a dependency and will claim it can't work without it. *Sigh* Hopefully all this will result in a general switch away from that hot mess and proper support from everything for, well, anything else...

Show threadbazkie 👩🏼‍💻 bitplanes 🎵1d ago

@nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft blegh! this type of dependency on something that should be totally independent is a sign of structural failure, i suppose..

i've been a debian fanby for the longest time but maybe it's time to look into other distros. can anyone recommend me which are the most "mainstream"/well-maintained non-systemd distros?

Show threadDistroWatch1d ago

@bazkie @nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft Devuan is Debian with an alternative init.

Antix provides multiple init implementations.

FreeBSD is not hard if you are used to Debian.

Show threadjandi1d ago

@distrowatch @bazkie @nazokiyoubinbou @nixCraft I've had an excellent experience with MX, which recently reinstated their classic dual-init support: https://mxlinux.org/blog/mx-25-dual-init-setup/

Now it's dual-init by default. My favorite Debian-based distro.

Show threadNazo1d ago
@jandi @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft I'm not sure I understand the benefit of dual init. Doesn't that mean you get the bloat and downsides of systemd while also using sysvinit for some reason? You're still going to have all the stuff that people want to avoid with systemd while it's installed and doing its thing, just with added complexity.
Show threadDistroWatch1d ago
@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft That's one way to look at it. Alternatively you could say you get the leanness of SysV init while also having the library features and application support of systemd.
Show threadNazo1d ago

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft I don't see how though. That's why I was asking of course. Just if both are installed and both are running then you get the leanness of sysv and the bloat of systemd... Which means just that much more instead of less....

In other words it's not just "best of both worlds" but literally straight up "both worlds," meaning best, worst, and a combination of the two all in one.

I just don't see how you can have 1+2 and not get 3 instead of 1.

Show threadDistroWatch1d ago
@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft Well, no. If you're running the SysV init version then systemd isn't running. But the systemd libraries are on the disk in case they are needed as dependencies. I thnk what you're missing is that both init implementations don't run at the same time so there isn't any bloat in memory or on the CPU.
Show threadNazo1d ago

@distrowatch @jandi @bazkie @nixCraft So the combo system just has the libraries, not actually running both? They don't really say anything to that effect specifically, so that's definitely something one would have to be very clear about.

All it says on there is "dual-init" without any real specifics.

Show threadjandi1d ago
@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft I guess the usage comes from dual-booting, where you can boot either of two (or more) OSs alternatively but not simultaneously.
Show threadNazo1d ago
@jandi @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft Definitely feels like that has a pretty limited range of use cases. Like one person specifically going back and forth with specific tools maybe. But for the most part it really feels like people should pick one.
Show threadjandi
@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @bazkie @nixCraft Whatever, I'm out.
Mar 20 at 11:53pmWeb
Show threadEmma Liv1d ago
@jandi You can only explain something to somebody so many times; you can't understand it for them. Geez that was painful to read.