BlueskyUnfortunately, Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now, due to a new state law that requires age verification for all users.
While intended for child safety, we think this law poses broader challenges & creates significant barriers that limit free speech & harm smaller platforms like ours.
Eugen Rochko@bsky.app And this is why real decentralization matters. There is nobody that can decide for the fediverse to block Mississippi.
Mike MasnickI feel like this is potentially misleading, Eugen? Both because others can host their own views of the network, but also will the largest instances, which you run, be willing to pay the $10k/user fines in Mississippi?
Because the state can still go after instances, no?
Nemes ContentIt's really not meant to be a gotcha kinda thing. I'm just trying to understand the actual complaint.
Fair point, and I believe you but I've see how conversations between fedi and bluesky usually goes.
Many people still think atproto is centralized and corporate controlled on the fedi side.
I am curious how eugene will respond since fedi runs tge whole instance as a site that talks to other sites.
My larger point is simply that this is a bad law that impacts both Mastodon and Bluesky (and the wider Fediverse/Atmosphere) and it seems like a reason to work together to fix the law (i.e., with @gargron.mastodon.social.ap.brid.gy) than to use it to take potshots at each other. The law is bad.
@[email protected] The law is bad, nobody said otherwise. But decentralized systems are supposed to be resilient. If the US makes a law banning all mentions of LGBT from social media, which sounds less unlikely by the minute, what will Bluesky do? All of your infrastructure is controlled by one US company…
Your final point is incorrect. Please don't spread misinfo about stuff like that.
Glyph@[email protected] @Gargron wait, what infrastructure is beyond Bluesky Social PBC's control?
A lot? There are independent instances of ATproto infrastructure that are not controlled by Bluesky. There are totally independent PDS's, relays, and appviews.
Folker@[email protected] @glyph @Gargron
Only a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of #atproto users is not dependent on #bluesky infrastructure. Basically all #atproto users - and literally all #bluesky users - are dependent on #bluesky and their decisions. That's a simple reality which cannot be taken away by all the tech talk how cool #atproto is in theory.
Only a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of #atproto users is not dependent on #bluesky infrastructure. Basically all #atproto users - and literally all #bluesky users - are dependent on #bluesky and their decisions. That's a simple reality which cannot be taken away by all the tech talk how cool #atproto is in theory.
@folkerschamel @[email protected] @Gargron what fraction is this? What software are they using? I would really like to even understand how this *might* work. (the fediverse is also, after all, still relatively centralized in practice, with a substantial majority of users still on mastodon ggmbh infrastructure. But other active independent instances do point a way to a less central future)
ikuturso 🇪🇺@glyph @folkerschamel @[email protected] @Gargron one datapoint is that I believe there's s less than six thousand users on a third party PDS out of the 30+ million registered users total. So roughly 1 out of like 5,000 or 0.02%... For the other services like third party web apps it's almost certainly even worse since you can count them with one hand and they're tiny or just experimentation by some dev. It's just not at all comparable to Mastodon.
edit: revised to more accurate
What you believe and what reality may be are two different things. It's pretty silly to make your arguments based on false info someone told you.
This stupid Mastodon hate for Bluesky which always involves blatant disinformation is so stupid. We both face the same issues and should work together on it. Instead you want to have a purity contest. What the fuck?
Xan LópezThey also constantly move the goalpost. First any form of federation would never happen. Then it was possible but you had to spend millions of dollars (!). Now there’s just not enough people doing it, etc. They have already decided to mistrust others so they just reason backwards.
Sorry, but this not true. @Gargron and @ikuturso were correct in everything they were saying.
While #bluesky centrally blocked #mississippi nobody in the #mastodon world has the ability to centrally block Mississippi.
While techincally #atproto supports decentralization as well as #activitypub , in practice basically all #atproto users are on the mercy of centralized #bluesky. The #mastodon world is really decentral: Decision making, jurisdictions etc.
Isn't agreeing on facts the ìnitial foundation for working together on something?
And what about making social networks interoperable instead of competing islands and all these emotions against "the others"?
What about #bluesky supporting also #activitypub in addition to #atproto to interconnect with #mastodon, #threads and the whole #fediverse?
Ideally the NIH syndrome and emotions don't work against interoperability of social networks.
@[email protected] Ikuturso's estimate is admittedly unsourced, but for this to rise to the bar of "disinformation", there would have to be accurate information somewhere that is being suppressed or ignored. If 0.003% is incorrect, do you have a better number?
@[email protected] The big example being repeatedly touted as the big Bluesky-independent group is Blacksky. But Blacksky is very small. https://opencollective.com/blacksky shows 965 contributors, which is right in line with that 1000-user estimate (not every blacksky user is on their PDS, a few other indie devs operate experimental PDSes, but it seems like it'd be a wash to me)
@[email protected] The Fediverse has a tool for tracking "decentralization" in the form of FediDB. What tool can I use to look at this for Bluesky?
Blacksky only opened up its PDS like a week ago and has been slowly letting people in. So that's 1000 people in a week. Give it at least a bit of time.
But I see you moving goalposts. "Oh it's not decentralized." "Oh it is, but not enough." "Oh, the other providers are too small"
The whole point is that people are building a decentralized thing here. Really decentralized. And, yes, building takes time. Some people are helping. But you and a small group of others want to run a purity contest with moving goalposts.
It's such a waste of time.
@[email protected] I am, personally, *really* trying to avoid abstruse exercises in semiotics about whose heart is the purest and most decentralized. I am trying to get a *clear picture* of how much control, over what populations of users, rests in whose hands right now, so we can have a fact-based conversation.
@[email protected] You've called your interlocutors here (myself included) hateful, stupid, goalpost-moving liars conducting pointless purity contests. You can see me that way if you like, I guess, but I think that if you're going to characterize us that way you *at least* should have some concrete facts to hand, that show that our information is, like, *materially* wrong, and not just that there are some hopeful inklings on the margins?
Whoa. I did not call people names. I called out false arguments and said they were a waste of time.
But, okay. I'm done with this. You're now attacking me, not arguments. I don't need this.
I hope you'll actually look more honestly at what's happening here. But I doubt you will. Bye.
@[email protected] I am just telling you how this post reads to someone else on the other side of the argument: "This stupid Mastodon hate for Bluesky which always involves blatant disinformation is so stupid.". If you are not intending to give insult, maybe consider other words than "stupid" and "hate" to communicate your feelings. I am really doing my best here. But it does seem clear we are at an impasse.
Roland Muts*screeching noise* "move those goal posts again!"
C'mon, man!
Reread the thread again, and take out the emotion this time.
@rhcmuts.bsky.social If you're interested in jumping in here, maybe I can avoid bothering Mike. I honestly did not understand the "moving goalposts" comment *at all* above, and I understand it even less now. Where do you feel like the goalposts were at the beginning, and where do you think I moved them to?
I don't have links handy but both @mackuba.eu and @laurenshof.online have been tracking atproto usage outside of Bluesky. But taking a snapshot in time is meaningless. There were pieces that needed to be built, but almost all of them have been built and now we're seeing truly third party offerings.
jandi@[email protected] @mackuba.eu @laurenshof.online @glyph This is asynchronous, no hurries, would love to see some links later!
@glyph So based on the stats page by @mackuba.eu that @[email protected] linked elsewhere in the thread my number was off though not by an order of magnitude on the total accounts on non-corporate PDS.
I was referencing a stat I remembered seeing recently but it may have been active accounts instead of all.
@[email protected] @glyph @folkerschamel @Gargron maybe actually say what you think is disinformation and why? not very convincing when you just accuse people of spreading it without being able to give any specifics.
@[email protected] it would be less infuriating to the outside observer if the Bluesky hype train was more ready to acknowledge the issues and limitations but it feels like all PR all the time. The "nothing to see here" attitude is not helping defuse any misconceptions.
No. What would be less infuriating is if the small group of people who feel that ActivityPub and ATproto were at war (which only one side seems to think) would give it up and focus on building a better overall ecosystem rather than whining about purity all the fucking time.
All @Gargron was doing is to point out that real decentralization matters, and that the #fediverse has solved that problem - descentralized in control and jurisdictions - no single authority could block Mississippi in the #fediverse.
Isn't this a good thing? Are you really sure you disagree with that?
What about learning from that or integrating with that (e.g. via #activitypub) instead of dismissing it?
It's disinformation to say that the the ATmosphere, powered by ATproto, is entirely centralized and controlled by one company.
@[email protected] @ikuturso @glyph @Gargron
Nobody said or implied that in this thread, on the contrary.
The point is that in practice #bluesky is quite centralized, because nearly all #atproto users are dependent on #bluesky, which is controlled by one company, and their centralized decisions.
As we can witness right now.
@[email protected] @ikuturso @glyph @folkerschamel I said it about Bluesky, not the "ATmosphere". As you have described to me, "Bluesky" as people know and use it, is a stack controlled by Bluesky PBC. And for what it's worth, I don't think pointing out the importance of decentralization is a "potshot" either.
haileyYou stated originally that no one can flip the switch on the fediverse though. The only comparable to the fediverse here is the atmosphere.
If we're comparing to Bluesky alone then the very same thing applies to Mastodon GMBH. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Also does this mean that mastodon.social intends to not comply with Mississippi's law?
Nathan A. Stine@[email protected] @Gargron @ikuturso @glyph @folkerschamel I think the point here is that of course both ActivityPub and AT are decentralized protocols. However, in practice AT almost wholly consists of traffic controlled by Bluesky Social PBC. It seems that's changing for the better every day. But right now "Bluesky" is more centralized *in practice* than "Mastodon."
Yes but also AT is newer. Give it time. And all this feels like is a pointless wasteful purity battle when what we should be doing is working together to push back on bad laws. At no point in this convo has anyone insulted AP yet it feels like many AP people can't wait to attack AT.
@[email protected] @Gargron @ikuturso @glyph @folkerschamel agree. There's room enough for both protocols. Ideally they'll seamlessly interop one day.
@[email protected] @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph @folkerschamel It is interesting that you are characterizing this discussion about decentralization of power as an attack on AT Proto, and it is interesting that this is the only context in which I hear about working together since Bluesky launched nearly two years ago. Well, I believe you have my e-mail address.
The reason I claim it's an attack on AT Proto is because (if you scroll up) you responded implying that Mastodon was somehow better positioned to weather this law, and I don't see how that's true, other than if the hope is that it's so small no one in Mississippi decides to sue?
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Are there realistic signs that #atproto-based platforms which are really out of the control of #bluesky (*) are escaping small tech circles into the borader public?
Bringing up #atproto when someone points out that #bluesky is centralized sounds like this I-have-a-black-friend excuse to me.
(*) See also the thread https://mastodon.social/@mastodonmigra[email protected]/115087562308049890
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Of course #mastadon is better positioned to wheather this mississippi law, because a) different #mastodon instances can decide differently (e.g. implementing some kind of age verification instead of blocking, giving users choices instead of #bluesky forcing down their decision to everyone's throat), and b) most instances are outside the us jurisdiction anyway and therefore don't have to worry about the mississippi law.
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Unlike #bluesky, #mastodon is not blocked centrally in Mississippi.
Glad to hear it.
It wouldn't have been technically possible anyway, since #mastodon is decentralized.
(Posting reply https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115113652757352708, which wasn't bridged, again, but this time as reply to myself to see if bridging is working then.)
#decentralization #activitypub #atproto #decentralizationwashing
You're misrepresenting again. Why? ATproto is not blocked. Other ATproto providers are still available in Mississippi. The fact that Mastodon GMBH is choosing to ignore the law is not about decentralization. If it obeyed the law then yes some Mastodon instances would be centrally blocked.
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Discuss that with Bluesky Social PBC @bsky.app and their VC investors. As said before, I'm only the messenger.😉 Well, not even that, I'm only the message-repeater "Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now"
https://mastodon.social/@bsky.app@bsky.brid.gy/115074172241972093
What are "mastodon instances"? I never understood that concept techies are talking like crazy about all the time. Are they the cause for "centrally block[ing]" as you say?😉
You again are misrepresenting. Why? mastodon.social which you are on is centralized. If it decides to obey the law you would be blocked in Mississippi. That's different than what Bluesky is doing. With Bluesky if you login with an alternative client, you're most likely not blocked.
Indeed the ATproto setup seems much better. Your only recourse if your server blocks is to start all over again somewhere else. With ATproto you can just login somewhere else with all your content intact
Well, I'm just relaying what your colleagues of Bluesky Social PBC are saying, see my previous post - argue with them instead of me.
Or with the people of the Mississippi Free Press, who said that the action of #bluesky is a "significant blow" to them https://www.mississippifreepress.org/editors-note-bluesky-blocks-mississippi-ips-citing-states-age-verification-law-free-speech-and-privacy-concerns/.
But yes, personally I like like the decentralized world of #mastodon and #activitypub without a single corporation controlling the infrastructure and data most users are dependent on.
lbnvds@folkerschamel @[email protected] Having a CEO at the top of a ‘free’ and ‘decentralised’ protocol is probably the most obvious red flag to me.
Mastodon Migration@folkerschamel @mmasnick.bsky.social
There is a big difference between truly decentralized and technically decentralizable.
See: Are we decentralized yet >>> https://arewedecentralizedyet.online/
@mastodonmigration @[email protected]
That's cool!
A picture is worth a thousand words.
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
I have no idea what this crazy tech diagram means, but I like the colors.🙃 While this large read area somehow feels really uncomfortable - like these claws wants to surround and control me 😨 - this little green sector looks really nice, friendly and comfortable.😊
https://mastodon.online/@mastodonmigration/115125132885064994
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
An insightful article about the power, importance and impact of decentralization of social networks.
Not only does that article make a number of obvious factual errors, it also reads very much like it was written by AI. It's funny that the errors it makes are ones I already explained to you were incorrect. I'd think you would have noticed.
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Not really.
See the following thread for details:
https://mastodon.online/@mastodonmigration/115129998343856795
#mastodon #bluesky #decentralization #decentralizationwashing
Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦---
A Mastodon server run by Mississippi residents must navigate local law, while servers in other jurisdictions can maintain different standards based on their local legal and cultural contexts.
---
That is not a legal shield.
Of course Mastodon servers by and large treat laws like:
Your average server administrator has no clue of the level of legal liability they're putting themselves under.
denise.dreamwidth.org/91757.html
Captcha Check
Captcha Check
FeralRobots@[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph @bsky.app
You are misrepresenting. Why? If mastodon.social blocks IPs in Mississippi, you can transfer your account to a new server, preserving all your followers.
You are misrepresenting. Why? If mastodon.social blocks IPs in Mississippi, you can transfer your account to a new server, preserving all your followers.
@[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @glyph Seems like he's not the one misrepresenting... it's quite obviously about decentralization since "some Mastodon instances" would cause only a minority of users in Mississippi to lose access whereas Bluesky was able to block very close to every single one of their users in Mississippi.
Whether the protocol is blocked or not isn't the sole determining factor on decentralization.
@[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @glyph This argument seems a little bit like arguing that the Great Firewall of China is not blocking anything in a centralized fashion because you've still got ways through it and didn't you know that HTTP isn't being blocked, there are still sites you can get through to with it.
Just silly and not something you'd try to argue for in any other context.
It amazes me how little the Mastodon people in this thread understand the tech they are talking about. Please stop misrepresenting how ATproto works as compared to Mastodon.
@[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @glyph I know that is a popular Bluesky cope and to be fair it has at times been true (outdated understanding of Jack Dorsey's role etc.)
In this particular case I'd say you just refuse to understand what the criticism is here like your paycheck depended on it though.
R1AirportBluesky will never be decentralized by your standards simply because no one will ever convince a majority of Bluesky users to switch to a different PDS.
All they can do is make it easy to switch appviews/feeds/moderation services/PDSs. That's good enough for me.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @glyph I hope you're wrong because if that's really all they can do then it's going to be just an illusion that will break the moment the they decide it is no longer in their interests
That's why the idea of "credible exit" or "the organization is a future adversary" is so important. If it ever becomes necessary to jump ship, it should be easy.
Most people on here don't have the illusion that Bluesky is decentralized because they don't know what decentralization is.
If they ever have to learn how it works so they can abandon ship, the switching cost should be minimal. It's why the idea of "credible exit" is so important.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron I just wish more people would admit it is what they are really shooting for.
FWIW haven't been convinced that the credible exit is actually credible but at least discussing it would be more fruitful