BlueskyUnfortunately, Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now, due to a new state law that requires age verification for all users.
While intended for child safety, we think this law poses broader challenges & creates significant barriers that limit free speech & harm smaller platforms like ours.
Eugen Rochko@bsky.app And this is why real decentralization matters. There is nobody that can decide for the fediverse to block Mississippi.
Mike MasnickI feel like this is potentially misleading, Eugen? Both because others can host their own views of the network, but also will the largest instances, which you run, be willing to pay the $10k/user fines in Mississippi?
Because the state can still go after instances, no?
Nemes ContentIt's really not meant to be a gotcha kinda thing. I'm just trying to understand the actual complaint.
Fair point, and I believe you but I've see how conversations between fedi and bluesky usually goes.
Many people still think atproto is centralized and corporate controlled on the fedi side.
I am curious how eugene will respond since fedi runs tge whole instance as a site that talks to other sites.
My larger point is simply that this is a bad law that impacts both Mastodon and Bluesky (and the wider Fediverse/Atmosphere) and it seems like a reason to work together to fix the law (i.e., with @gargron.mastodon.social.ap.brid.gy) than to use it to take potshots at each other. The law is bad.
@[email protected] The law is bad, nobody said otherwise. But decentralized systems are supposed to be resilient. If the US makes a law banning all mentions of LGBT from social media, which sounds less unlikely by the minute, what will Bluesky do? All of your infrastructure is controlled by one US company…
Your final point is incorrect. Please don't spread misinfo about stuff like that.
Glyph@[email protected] @Gargron wait, what infrastructure is beyond Bluesky Social PBC's control?
A lot? There are independent instances of ATproto infrastructure that are not controlled by Bluesky. There are totally independent PDS's, relays, and appviews.
Folker@[email protected] @glyph @Gargron
Only a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of #atproto users is not dependent on #bluesky infrastructure. Basically all #atproto users - and literally all #bluesky users - are dependent on #bluesky and their decisions. That's a simple reality which cannot be taken away by all the tech talk how cool #atproto is in theory.
Only a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of #atproto users is not dependent on #bluesky infrastructure. Basically all #atproto users - and literally all #bluesky users - are dependent on #bluesky and their decisions. That's a simple reality which cannot be taken away by all the tech talk how cool #atproto is in theory.
@folkerschamel @[email protected] @Gargron what fraction is this? What software are they using? I would really like to even understand how this *might* work. (the fediverse is also, after all, still relatively centralized in practice, with a substantial majority of users still on mastodon ggmbh infrastructure. But other active independent instances do point a way to a less central future)
ikuturso 🇪🇺@glyph @folkerschamel @[email protected] @Gargron one datapoint is that I believe there's s less than six thousand users on a third party PDS out of the 30+ million registered users total. So roughly 1 out of like 5,000 or 0.02%... For the other services like third party web apps it's almost certainly even worse since you can count them with one hand and they're tiny or just experimentation by some dev. It's just not at all comparable to Mastodon.
edit: revised to more accurate
What you believe and what reality may be are two different things. It's pretty silly to make your arguments based on false info someone told you.
@[email protected] @glyph @folkerschamel @Gargron maybe actually say what you think is disinformation and why? not very convincing when you just accuse people of spreading it without being able to give any specifics.
It's disinformation to say that the the ATmosphere, powered by ATproto, is entirely centralized and controlled by one company.
@[email protected] @ikuturso @glyph @folkerschamel I said it about Bluesky, not the "ATmosphere". As you have described to me, "Bluesky" as people know and use it, is a stack controlled by Bluesky PBC. And for what it's worth, I don't think pointing out the importance of decentralization is a "potshot" either.
If we're comparing to Bluesky alone then the very same thing applies to Mastodon GMBH. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Also does this mean that mastodon.social intends to not comply with Mississippi's law?
Nathan A. Stine@[email protected] @Gargron @ikuturso @glyph @folkerschamel I think the point here is that of course both ActivityPub and AT are decentralized protocols. However, in practice AT almost wholly consists of traffic controlled by Bluesky Social PBC. It seems that's changing for the better every day. But right now "Bluesky" is more centralized *in practice* than "Mastodon."
Yes but also AT is newer. Give it time. And all this feels like is a pointless wasteful purity battle when what we should be doing is working together to push back on bad laws. At no point in this convo has anyone insulted AP yet it feels like many AP people can't wait to attack AT.
@[email protected] @Gargron @ikuturso @glyph @folkerschamel agree. There's room enough for both protocols. Ideally they'll seamlessly interop one day.
@[email protected] @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph @folkerschamel It is interesting that you are characterizing this discussion about decentralization of power as an attack on AT Proto, and it is interesting that this is the only context in which I hear about working together since Bluesky launched nearly two years ago. Well, I believe you have my e-mail address.
The reason I claim it's an attack on AT Proto is because (if you scroll up) you responded implying that Mastodon was somehow better positioned to weather this law, and I don't see how that's true, other than if the hope is that it's so small no one in Mississippi decides to sue?
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Are there realistic signs that #atproto-based platforms which are really out of the control of #bluesky (*) are escaping small tech circles into the borader public?
Bringing up #atproto when someone points out that #bluesky is centralized sounds like this I-have-a-black-friend excuse to me.
(*) See also the thread https://mastodon.social/@mastodonmigra[email protected]/115087562308049890
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Of course #mastadon is better positioned to wheather this mississippi law, because a) different #mastodon instances can decide differently (e.g. implementing some kind of age verification instead of blocking, giving users choices instead of #bluesky forcing down their decision to everyone's throat), and b) most instances are outside the us jurisdiction anyway and therefore don't have to worry about the mississippi law.
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Unlike #bluesky, #mastodon is not blocked centrally in Mississippi.
Glad to hear it.
It wouldn't have been technically possible anyway, since #mastodon is decentralized.
(Posting reply https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115113652757352708, which wasn't bridged, again, but this time as reply to myself to see if bridging is working then.)
#decentralization #activitypub #atproto #decentralizationwashing
You're misrepresenting again. Why? ATproto is not blocked. Other ATproto providers are still available in Mississippi. The fact that Mastodon GMBH is choosing to ignore the law is not about decentralization. If it obeyed the law then yes some Mastodon instances would be centrally blocked.
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Discuss that with Bluesky Social PBC @bsky.app and their VC investors. As said before, I'm only the messenger.😉 Well, not even that, I'm only the message-repeater "Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now"
https://mastodon.social/@bsky.app@bsky.brid.gy/115074172241972093
What are "mastodon instances"? I never understood that concept techies are talking like crazy about all the time. Are they the cause for "centrally block[ing]" as you say?😉
You again are misrepresenting. Why? mastodon.social which you are on is centralized. If it decides to obey the law you would be blocked in Mississippi. That's different than what Bluesky is doing. With Bluesky if you login with an alternative client, you're most likely not blocked.
Indeed the ATproto setup seems much better. Your only recourse if your server blocks is to start all over again somewhere else. With ATproto you can just login somewhere else with all your content intact
Well, I'm just relaying what your colleagues of Bluesky Social PBC are saying, see my previous post - argue with them instead of me.
Or with the people of the Mississippi Free Press, who said that the action of #bluesky is a "significant blow" to them https://www.mississippifreepress.org/editors-note-bluesky-blocks-mississippi-ips-citing-states-age-verification-law-free-speech-and-privacy-concerns/.
But yes, personally I like like the decentralized world of #mastodon and #activitypub without a single corporation controlling the infrastructure and data most users are dependent on.
lbnvds@folkerschamel @[email protected] Having a CEO at the top of a ‘free’ and ‘decentralised’ protocol is probably the most obvious red flag to me.
Mastodon Migration@folkerschamel @mmasnick.bsky.social
There is a big difference between truly decentralized and technically decentralizable.
See: Are we decentralized yet >>> https://arewedecentralizedyet.online/
@mastodonmigration @[email protected]
That's cool!
A picture is worth a thousand words.
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
I have no idea what this crazy tech diagram means, but I like the colors.🙃 While this large read area somehow feels really uncomfortable - like these claws wants to surround and control me 😨 - this little green sector looks really nice, friendly and comfortable.😊
https://mastodon.online/@mastodonmigration/115125132885064994
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
An insightful article about the power, importance and impact of decentralization of social networks.
Not only does that article make a number of obvious factual errors, it also reads very much like it was written by AI. It's funny that the errors it makes are ones I already explained to you were incorrect. I'd think you would have noticed.
@[email protected] @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Not really.
See the following thread for details:
https://mastodon.online/@mastodonmigration/115129998343856795
#mastodon #bluesky #decentralization #decentralizationwashing
"Not really" is your answer to me pointing out you're pushing an AI-generated article with blatant factual errors that completely make the point it's making false?
You are not worth talking to. My goodness.
@folkerschamel @mmasnick.bsky.social @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso
Again. Rather than engage with the substance of the article, MM's approach is to brush it aside with sweeping generalizations, false characterizations and ad hominem attacks. There is nothing untrue in the article. It is a good characterization of the benefits of real decentralization. Benefits that Bluesky and Mike Masnick often disingenuously trumpet when talking about "No Caesars" and the ability to "fork off."
guilty indeed@mastodonmigration @mmasnick.bsky.social I don't really agree that ATProto and BlueSky LLC can be realistically separated rn, but imo MM is 100% correct that that "article" with no author reads like AI slop and I'm not sure I'd engage with it, either.
@cold @mastodonmigration @[email protected]
Well, what does it say about the state and future of the world that this "AI slop" has much more solid and sincere arguments than the posts of @[email protected] ?😉
It may be AI slop. Who knows these days. But the substance of the critique is consistent with that of several others on the same subject, like this from @freezenet
https://www.freezenet.ca/mastodon-isnt-complying-with-age-verification-because-it-cant/
Or even the TechCrunch Sarah Perez @Sarahp piece.
The point is to stop attacking the messengers and address the substance of the criticism.
Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦---
A Mastodon server run by Mississippi residents must navigate local law, while servers in other jurisdictions can maintain different standards based on their local legal and cultural contexts.
---
That is not a legal shield.
Of course Mastodon servers by and large treat laws like:
Your average server administrator has no clue of the level of legal liability they're putting themselves under.
denise.dreamwidth.org/91757.html
Captcha Check
Captcha Check
In this case, for example: you know how basically every Mastodon server solicits donations from their users? If any of them are from Mississippi, that's conducting commerce with Mississippi residents. "Purposeful availment". Repeating it would be make it a "systematic and continuous" relationship.
FeralRobots@[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph @bsky.app
You are misrepresenting. Why? If mastodon.social blocks IPs in Mississippi, you can transfer your account to a new server, preserving all your followers.
You are misrepresenting. Why? If mastodon.social blocks IPs in Mississippi, you can transfer your account to a new server, preserving all your followers.
@[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @glyph Seems like he's not the one misrepresenting... it's quite obviously about decentralization since "some Mastodon instances" would cause only a minority of users in Mississippi to lose access whereas Bluesky was able to block very close to every single one of their users in Mississippi.
Whether the protocol is blocked or not isn't the sole determining factor on decentralization.
@[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @glyph This argument seems a little bit like arguing that the Great Firewall of China is not blocking anything in a centralized fashion because you've still got ways through it and didn't you know that HTTP isn't being blocked, there are still sites you can get through to with it.
Just silly and not something you'd try to argue for in any other context.
It amazes me how little the Mastodon people in this thread understand the tech they are talking about. Please stop misrepresenting how ATproto works as compared to Mastodon.
@[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @glyph I know that is a popular Bluesky cope and to be fair it has at times been true (outdated understanding of Jack Dorsey's role etc.)
In this particular case I'd say you just refuse to understand what the criticism is here like your paycheck depended on it though.
R1AirportBluesky will never be decentralized by your standards simply because no one will ever convince a majority of Bluesky users to switch to a different PDS.
All they can do is make it easy to switch appviews/feeds/moderation services/PDSs. That's good enough for me.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron @stinerman @glyph I hope you're wrong because if that's really all they can do then it's going to be just an illusion that will break the moment the they decide it is no longer in their interests
That's why the idea of "credible exit" or "the organization is a future adversary" is so important. If it ever becomes necessary to jump ship, it should be easy.
Most people on here don't have the illusion that Bluesky is decentralized because they don't know what decentralization is.
If they ever have to learn how it works so they can abandon ship, the switching cost should be minimal. It's why the idea of "credible exit" is so important.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @folkerschamel @Gargron I just wish more people would admit it is what they are really shooting for.
FWIW haven't been convinced that the credible exit is actually credible but at least discussing it would be more fruitful
Prioritizing credible exits is certainly more fruitful than disabling sign-ups on bsky.social to force users onto other PDSs (like what mastodon.social did).
Arguably credible exit is more important than the distribution of users across the network.
I’m just glad that we’ve moved on from debating whether Bluesky is federated.
@[email protected] @ikuturso @[email protected] @Gargron
Which percentage of people blocked by #bluesky in Mississippi, especially of the Mississippi Free Press, have used this "credible exit" successfully?
It depends what you mean. How many users signed into blacksky.community instead of bsky.app is unclear.
Considering Bluesky isn't deleting Missisipi-based accounts off of bsky.social, and considering the processing of switching to another PDS is currently not user-friendly, I'd guess not many.
Blacksky
Blacksky
It would seriously help if you stopped comparing apples to oranges. But you seem unable to do so.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @ikuturso @Gargron
My question was "comparing" something??🤔 I always thought that hallucinations are something coming only from AIs ... Have I been talking to a bot all the time?🤭Is the whole #bluesky universe based on hallucinations about decentralization?😮 Now I have very many questions!🙃
You continue to compare Bluesky to ActivityPub, and when I point out you should compare ATproto, you don't. Why? Do you understand how any of this works?
But now you're just flinging insults around, so I'll just block you. I don't need you wasting my time any more.
Kait Richardshroom 🍄🟫This is a bizarre thing you’re doing right here, especially at this point in history.
@thryse.com @[email protected] @[email protected] @ikuturso @Gargron
I want a honest discussion based on facts. I think this is the best approach not only "at this point in history", but in general. Do you agree?